EUROPE MASSIVE Feedback Thread

[Shepherd]

I'll take a look at the map and make a decision on Northern Greece. I originally gave it that name because, as pyth noted, it includes a lot of land that isn't Greek Macedonia. While Northern Greece may be a generic catch-all, I'd rather be generic than be inaccurate.

Of course, one option would be to redraw the region to better fit the existing regions, but that may also raise issues - we have a lot of small region in the middle of the map already.

 

[smi]

IMO the name should change from northern Greece to Macedonia. However i understand this is a sensitive political issue and this isnt the place to discuss politics...

If anything it would give more flavour to the area than just central greece / northern greece + the land resembless pretty much Macedonia since the mountaintops "hide" Greek Thrace?

 

[NewSheriffInTown]

Okay, my turn

I'm going to make a suggestion about Starting Neutrals. I think that some Neutrals starting with 3 is a bit too unappealing in some locations.

Neutrals that should stay at 3

Neutrals that are also key border countries - They should stay as 3 because of the Strategic Advantage

1480:3 - Ireland
1468:3 - Denmark
1467:3 - Danube
1443:3 - Armenia
1545:3 - Vesturland (though not sure if it should be replace with Austerland to prevent payers from being "blocked in"

These commands have limited appeal, except to players who occupy the other half, but could be kept as 3 because the bonus is worth 2 (or for a similar reason)

1541:3 - Transylvania
1491:3 - Latvia
1500:3 - Minsk
1448:3 - Belgium
1512:3 - Norte

Neutrals that should be reduced to 2

These also have limited appeal, except to players who already occupy the second half. They should be lowered to 2 because the bonus is only worth 1.

1528:2 - Slovakia
1542:2 - Tyrol
1454:2 - Budapest
1450:2 - Bohemia

Neutrals that should be reduced to 1 (or maybe 2)

These regions have no strategic advantage in taking at all. The game can easily be won by "playing around" them. They should be lowered to 1 since no one has any motivation to take them. If you think 1 is too low, then starting as 2 I guess is acceptable.

1538:1 - Switzerland
1436:1 - Andorra
1494:1 - Malta
1503:1 - Moldova

Remember that with so many Auto-deploys, unless the setting are "unlimited reinforcements" then a lot of these bonuses will go wasted, hence the need to make them more appealing.

ANOTHER IDEA:

Also remember, the only reason we have so many neutrals is so the game doesn't stall while trying to allocate players. I think it would be safe to eliminate 1 or 2 of these starting neutrals altogether without causing a crash. If so, I would vote to remove Vesturland and Armenia (since Armenia is a 3 country command).

Others to consider would be some of the "center countries" - Tyrol, Budapest, Bohemia, Transylvania, or Danube.

Case in point:

Check out this game - https://www.majorcommand.com/games/307661/

A bit defense. The reservers are up to 50. Everyone has 170-220 troops each. And look at the neutrals.

Andorra, Switz, Denmark, Moldova, Malta, and Slovakia, have still not been taken, and there are only 3 troops on each!

 

[Shepherd]

I'm ready and willing to sort this out, and I agree that it needs a fix.

Right now there are 18 starting neutral regions; all of the single region commands, and one region from each two or three region command.

Before we do anything I think we have to isolate the problem. It could be that the value of the starting neutrals is too high. However, in looking only at the game that Sheriff referenced above, I don't think that's the case. Of the 18 regions which started neutral, only five have not been taken. The starting value of three didn't stop players from grabbing 13 of the 18 neutral regions.

So then I ask, what makes those five special? Malta seems like an obvious early grab if you start with troops in Italy, just as Ireland is to somebody who starts strong in the UK. Ajdedo took Ireland in the 7th round. I see that in this game Italy was captured early - round 4 - and as a result pyth had to worry more about holding the bonus than expanding it. At this point, with 600 troops on the board, it's not worth it. I'd say Ireland and Malta are both decent 3s, as is Andorra for the same reasons..

Denmark has strategic value as a transit point between larger commands, so it will fall when it needs to regardless of the start value.

The problem, I see, is in the middle of the map. Slovakia and Moldova haven't fallen in that map because players don't go after the middle of the map, and by the time they have the strength it doesn't seem worth the effort. It is my opinion that the cluster of neutrals in the middle of the map to start each game is the culprit.

It has been suggested that the start problem has been resolved because the server now tries multiple start combinations before giving up and considering a game broken. If this is the case we can eliminate starting neutrals on Budapest, Tyrol, Norte (portugal), Vesturland, Belgium, Armenia, Danube, Bohemia, Transylvania, Latvia, and Minsk. That brings us down to just seven regions that start neutral: Ireland, Denmark, Slovakia, Moldova, Malta, Switzerland, and Andorra. None of these regions border each other and they are pretty well spread across the map, so if these were the only five neutral starts it would eliminates the neutral cluster problem.

Eliminating 13 regions that start each game neutral has the added benefit of generating more regions per player to start every game. Meanwhile, dropping the starting neutral value hands those regions to the first player/s to go first in the game. I find eliminating neutrals to be the more elegant solution.

Of course, we should play test it to make sure games don't hang up, especially in 2p situations. I'll have time to horse around with it this weekend.

 

[smi]

Since the early discussion about the starting neutrs on this map, and since the stars aligned enabling me to do so i grabbed the neutrals before some days on the center on this game to test how it will turn out : https://www.majorcommand.com/games/307678/

I'm not conviced yet that it helped me a lot.. but they seem uninviting to fight over anyway, neutral or not. rperry96 had the chance to attack me and seize one or two of them central commands the last couple of turns but didnt opt to do so, understanbly so because spending 10 troops over a +2 bonus seems not worth it (better to secure italy) . I guess if i hold them 1-2 more turns it will def. be worth it for me... With one-path setting i will never have the chance to move these troops and as the game progresses they will be even more uninviting for anyone to get.

Also on what i could have done instead: i could have secured france and poland. This could turn out better or worse depending on how the rest the players decided to act on it


At the same moment for escalate games it gives a good shot to snipe anyone from the center.. This would be even more true for 8+ player games


One more thing , not relevant to the discussion about the central commands : it seems that the commands with a capital on the border have a big advantage while expanding. I dont think it makes the map unbalanced, just noting it.

 

[Sebrim]

I found an error: Central and South Eastern Anatolia are linked, which they shouldn't be

 

[Shepherd]

fixed.

 

[Shepherd]

Here's what I've done...

1. Removed the five neutrals in 3-regions commands. Dropping the neutrals on the 2-region commands results in games not starting correctly.

2. Dropped the starting value of the following neutrals to 2:
• Bohemia
• Budapest
• Tyrol
• Danube

These four regions are part of the two-region commands in the center of the map. They'll be easy captures early, but the player will need to defend both regions in the middle of a pack of enemies in order to collect a single, auto-deployed troop.

Overall, this removes one neutral from the mess in the center of the map and drops four more to starting 2s. I hope that collectively solves the problem.

 

[sundicekid]

I love this map! I love that it's Super Massive with lots of regions and commands. Very cool. The colours are also way better now.

I wouldn't mind if the 3 barren lands became regions as well, more massive-er! And hey, it's not like Russia is really part of Europe, and Europeans have always traveled to those lands as well - so why not!

 

[masterjskye]

I wouldn't mind if the 3 barren lands became regions as well, more massive-er! And hey, it's not like Russia is really part of Europe, and Europeans have always traveled to those lands as well - so why not!

+1

 

[Shepherd]

I wouldn't mind if the 3 barren lands became regions as well, more massive-er!

OK, now you're just being greedy!

 

[Shepherd]

Alright, I think this map is there. I've implemented many of the suggestions in this forum and overhauled the colors, troop containers, etc. If you see any spelling glitches or highlights that aren't aligned please post it here.

A big thanks to thenoahw and everyone else who helped make this map happen.

Europe Massive is now open for play, and I believe there's even a tournament underway. Enjoy!

 

[OneEyed]

congratulation to thenoahw and majorcommand to releasing this map.

I still missing the sea connection to eastern Iceland instead two connections to western Iceland.

OneEyed

 

[sundicekid]

Hey Shep, still Cyprus & Auto misspelled in the Brief box, 3rd pp.

Not sure if this was planned, but I just started turn and to my delight I had 3 capitals, but no auto-deploy. I'm assuming 1st turn in that case doesn't get auto-deploy.

Yes, of course it would be for holding the command, lol. Never mind

 

[Sebrim]

nope, sundice, the auto-eploy is only if you have the entire command, which you probably didn't have for your first turn

 

[Shepherd]

Brief has been corrected and the language has been changed to better explain how bonuses are earned, given the confusion.

 

[Sebrim]

I agree with OneEyed that it would be good to change one of the Iceland sear outes to Eastern Iceland.

I also want to remind you of the Albania-problem. Nobody wants to do anything about it?

 

[Shepherd]

I agree with OneEyed that it would be good to change one of the Iceland sear outes to Eastern Iceland.

I'd actually forgotten about that one... I can change it, but it will change it for all games already underway, including games in tournaments.

I also want to remind you of the Albania-problem. Nobody wants to do anything about it?

I honestly don't see why this is a "problem." There is a "Balkans" command, and Albania is in the Balkans. Yes, there are other countries in the area which are independent commands, but this was a gameplay decision and I think it was a decent one.

 

[OneEyed]

I'd actually forgotten about that one... I can change it, but it will change it for all games already underway, including games in tournaments.

maybe better to let go started games, but for a while immobilize the map from menu and redraw/rewrite it now as have map with little "mistake" for ever?

OneEyed

 

[Cardinalsrule]

Personally, I would see having routes to both of the terts of a +1 command as a "mistake". I see no compelling reason to change it.