EUROPE MASSIVE Feedback Thread

[NewSheriffInTown]

Okay, my turn

I'm going to make a suggestion about Starting Neutrals. I think that some Neutrals starting with 3 is a bit too unappealing in some locations.

Neutrals that should stay at 3

Neutrals that are also key border countries - They should stay as 3 because of the Strategic Advantage

1480:3 - Ireland
1468:3 - Denmark
1467:3 - Danube
1443:3 - Armenia
1545:3 - Vesturland (though not sure if it should be replace with Austerland to prevent payers from being "blocked in"

These commands have limited appeal, except to players who occupy the other half, but could be kept as 3 because the bonus is worth 2 (or for a similar reason)

1541:3 - Transylvania
1491:3 - Latvia
1500:3 - Minsk
1448:3 - Belgium
1512:3 - Norte

Neutrals that should be reduced to 2

These also have limited appeal, except to players who already occupy the second half. They should be lowered to 2 because the bonus is only worth 1.

1528:2 - Slovakia
1542:2 - Tyrol
1454:2 - Budapest
1450:2 - Bohemia

Neutrals that should be reduced to 1 (or maybe 2)

These regions have no strategic advantage in taking at all. The game can easily be won by "playing around" them. They should be lowered to 1 since no one has any motivation to take them. If you think 1 is too low, then starting as 2 I guess is acceptable.

1538:1 - Switzerland
1436:1 - Andorra
1494:1 - Malta
1503:1 - Moldova

Remember that with so many Auto-deploys, unless the setting are "unlimited reinforcements" then a lot of these bonuses will go wasted, hence the need to make them more appealing.

ANOTHER IDEA:

Also remember, the only reason we have so many neutrals is so the game doesn't stall while trying to allocate players. I think it would be safe to eliminate 1 or 2 of these starting neutrals altogether without causing a crash. If so, I would vote to remove Vesturland and Armenia (since Armenia is a 3 country command).

Others to consider would be some of the "center countries" - Tyrol, Budapest, Bohemia, Transylvania, or Danube.

 

[Shepherd]

interesting. The problem is definitely the cluster of neutrals right in the middle of the map. I thought that they'd be a hot target early on, but that's not the case - it's a vulnerable spot in the center of everything, and in the overall scheme of things a +1 on this map isn't a game changer.

That said, starting regions with only one troop just hands those regions to whoever gets the first turn in the game - easy cards with no loss of troops. I'd agree with making the single-region commands start as twos: there are enough of them that player 1 can't possibly go after them all successfully.

The reason Vesturland is neutral and not Austerland is that if Aust started neutral there would be only one player who could go after Iceland to start the game - the player who drops Vesturland.

Two-region commands in which neither region is coded neutral are going to cause games to freeze pretty regularly; it would crash about a third of two-player games. It would mean that users with a limited number of games are stuck in games that never start, and it would cause tournaments to stall out. Three region commands aren't as bad, but it'll happen.

 

[smi]

Some more feedback:

Northern Greece should be Greek Macedonia

+1
A really sensitive matter here in greece But the same can be told i guess for most of europe

Neutrals that should be reduced to 1

Starting neutrals with 1 is essentially giving the first players a "free" attack. This can be a huge advantage at 12p games since its a free card, while you stack 5 on one territory (more with reinf.) , so you are good to get 1 more successful attack next turn.

I'd agree with making the single-region commands start as twos: there are enough of them that player 1 can't possibly go after them all successfully.

Neutrals that should be reduced to 2
These also have limited appeal, except to players who already occupy the second half. They should be lowered to 2 because the bonus is only worth 1.

OK i agree 100% here, except Vesturland due to pathing. At the moment its just better to go for a bigger command that you happened to drop two or more starting terr.

The reason Vesturland is neutral and not Austerland is that if Aust started neutral there would be only one player who could go after Iceland to start the game - the player who drops Vesturland

But isnt this true now as well? Why would i want to attack 3 neutr. only to find another player behind it? An idea could be to change the sea path from Midt. Norde to Austerland.

the cluster of neutrals right in the middle of the map

Maybe we should give some more time to this. It surely has the secret upside that w.e region you focus on it isnt fully exposed, since it has neutrals on the other side

 

[NewSheriffInTown]

interesting. The problem is definitely the cluster of neutrals right in the middle of the map. I thought that they'd be a hot target early on, but that's not the case - it's a vulnerable spot in the center of everything, and in the overall scheme of things a +1 on this map isn't a game changer.

Exactly.

That said, starting regions with only one troop just hands those regions to whoever gets the first turn in the game - easy cards with no loss of troops. I'd agree with making the single-region commands start as twos: there are enough of them that player 1 can't possibly go after them all successfully.

Yes, I would agree, but I would come back by saying:

1) We already have a precedent for 1 troop bonuses. Africa has 8 regions with a +1 Auto-deploy and 1 troop as a starting neutral. That map plays well. The problem isn't the first player taking all the auto-deploys, it's taking them, and then protecting them from the next player.

2) Secondly. Strategically speaking, it's always better to attack your opponent then it is to attack a neutral. That's why the neutral 3's and possibly 2's get avoided.

3) Lastly, The 4 regions I suggest to be 1's, are strategically useless countries, with multiple borders to boot.

But that's just me pointing out another sides of an argument. I just want what's best.

The reason Vesturland is neutral and not Austerland is that if Aust started neutral there would be only one player who could go after Iceland to start the game - the player who drops Vesturland.

Oh yeah, good point. Though it's not very tempting to attack a neutral knowing there is an opponent hiding behind it.

Two-region commands in which neither region is coded neutral are going to cause games to freeze pretty regularly; it would crash about a third of two-player games. It would mean that users with a limited number of games are stuck in games that never start, and it would cause tournaments to stall out. Three region commands aren't as bad, but it'll happen.

I know it used to make the Classic Massive freeze all the time with 2 players. That was because the game would only try X amount of combination before quitting. Marcos addressed that issue somehow. I'm not sure if he raised the number of tries, or what, but Classic Massive no longer freezes when 2 players play.

 

[OneEyed]

if I good understand there are no "normal" deploy bonuses, just autodeploy to capital if entire state is held?

some sea connections could be changed anywhere.
- could connection from Midt Norge go to Austerland?
- could connection from Scotland go to Vestlandet?
- could connection from Denmark go to Gotaland?
- there are not too much sea connections in Mediterranean?

- as Sebrim pointed, Albania could be removed from Balkans and made independent bonus.

OneEyed

 

[Dalinar]

Just thought I'd chime in on the neutral numbers - I'm starting to really like the sound of the way you guys are balancing it

However, with the 1 neutrals in Africa, you always have the planes available as well as often having multiple routes other roots to the drop zones. I'd be just wary of doing a similar thing here. On Africa, you're at most 5-7 regions away from any other region that matter. If you're not nearby, you can hop in a plane. I haven't counted, but on Massive Europe, I'd guess that could up to 30-40.

Just saying - please make sure there aren't particularly good commands that are easy to cut people off from. We don't need another Cardiff..

 

[Shepherd]

I would argue that Africa and Europe Massive are not comparable maps. A map on which you start with 10 regions and three troops to place demands different opening strategy than starting with 25 regions and 8 troops. And the 1s in Africa revert to neutral if you don't load them up with troops.

Adding a sea route to the eastern half of Iceland would play well.

If we're certain that the dead start problem has been solved I'm fine with removing the starting neutrals from all of the two and three region commands. I think that alone would solve the problem of the cluster of neutrals - and we may not even need to reduce the threes to twos, because somebody who gets a good drop in the middle of the map (which will be more likely when all the regions there are assigned to start the game) would be more willing to take a neutral for a quick +1.

Sea route changes will be made in Scandinavia. I think we can add one or two more in the Med, (Crete to Peloponese is one I've been meaning to add) but there are so many connections on this map already that I want to preserve the ability to hold a command. I'm wary about makings things even harder to hold, and I don't want to turn any protected regions in a command into additional borders that need to be held.

 

[pyth]

Guys you did an excellent job on the map. Many thanks!
Just a couple of gameplay suggestions:
- Since the troop bonuses are auto deployed on the capitals, it would be rather interesting if you could bombard, say, neighbouring nations' capitals.
- It would be rather hard if not impossible to hold Russia and Kaliningrand, so id suggest a smaller bonus (e.g.+3) if the command is held without Kaliningrand.

 

[Cagey]

Want. Play. Now.

 

[Shepherd]

Want. Play. Now.

Yes yes, but we want to get it right first. If we open the floodgates and then need to make gameplay changes once there are 50 or 60 games going, we're going to have 300 users asking us to restore the points that the rule changes cost them. Considering the amount of feedback we've been getting, I'd count on this taking another week or two.

 

[markattax]

I'm enjoying the test games I'm involved in but there appears to still be a glitch with regards to the auto-deploy on the capitals when you hold the command. Should you have three matching cards but choose NOT to play them, you do not receive the auto-deploys.

In setting up the games I would echo Sherriff's comment about setting up the game with "unlimited reinforcements" or perhaps go with three as otherwise the bonuses would go unused or have to await another turn.

 

[Shepherd]

I'm enjoying the test games I'm involved in but there appears to still be a glitch with regards to the auto-deploy on the capitals when you hold the command. Should you have three matching cards but choose NOT to play them, you do not receive the auto-deploys.

Hey Markattax. We identified that problem this week and I thought I'd found a workaround. Did this just happen to you today, or was it a couple of days ago?

 

[markattax]

It happened again today.

 

[Shepherd]

It happened again today.

Poop. Can you give us the game number?

Nevermind: 305986.

In comparing the game log and the round-by-round view of the game, it looks like you received troops on the regions in question today; each region's troop count increased from round 10 to 11 to 12 by the correct amount, and you aren't manually placing troops there.

 

[LordAdef]

Yes yes, but we want to get it right first. If we open the floodgates and then need to make gameplay changes once there are 50 or 60 games going, we're going to have 300 users asking us to restore the points that the rule changes cost them. Considering the amount of feedback we've been getting, I'd count on this taking another week or two.

You guys could've let Silver Donors in too.

 

[NewSheriffInTown]

We're getting there. Right now we're still finding bugs.

 

[LordAdef]

We're getting there. Right now we're still finding bugs.

I just had a look in the game and there are mispellings in the Briefing.

Cyprus is written Cyrpus. Auto-deploy is wrong too.

 

[NewSheriffInTown]

What are you saying? Cyrpus is not a magical destination for my summer holiday?

 

[Shepherd]

What are you saying? Cyrpus is not a magical destination for my summer holiday?

Please, enough about your Cyrpus. This is a family site.

Again, the suggestion here have been noted. There will be significant changes made this weekend, after which we will reevaluate and hopefully be ready to launch. It'll mean some funny things will happen to games underway, so be warned. if anything looks odd, clear your browser's cache and reload the game.

 

[Cagey]