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Large Europe

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Shepherd

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I didn't say that they weren't important, just that gameplay and graphics needs to be a priority. If that part isn't ironed out, this map wouldn't get published anyway. Adding/subtracting a few terts or changing a few names will be easy after that.
Don't worry at all about graphics - if the map reaches that point we can hammer that part out later together. And while I wouldn't suggest that you completely disregard history and geography, I think we can take some liberties here and there to assure that the map is playable.

So playing catch up: it sounds as if you are - or were - suggesting three different layers of bonuses, in order here from micro to macro:
1. Capital Bonuses. Hold a major national capital and a troop is auto-deployed to that region.
2. National Bonuses. Hold all regions in a politically defined country, such as France, and get a bonus for that command in addition to the Capital Bonus for holdin, say, Paris.
3. Regional Bonuses. (This confused me at first, because we use the term region to refer to a single, capturable space on the board.) Hold a command made up of a large cluster of 'regions' that may or may not be a part of a national bonus and receive a bonus in addition to nested National Bonuses.

OneEyed is understandably irked by the configuration of the National Bonuses; some countries don't warrant bonuses while other regions that aren't countries get a National Bonus. The political regions of Austria, Switzerland, the Czech Republic, and the North Caucasus each have populations of 8-10 million people, yet the only area that gets a National Bonus on this map is the one that isn't an independent nation. One could argue that while the Caucasus occupies a larger area of land, it would be less important economically and strategically than the Czech Republic.

What will likely happen early in games is that players are simply going to pull their troop out of the central part of the map because Austria and its neighbors aren't worth anything. I see that as both an accuracy problem and a gameplay problem. You've just created a dead area right in the center of the map that nobody wants.

As with every other map thread that I've tried to help with for the past year, my solution would be this: simplify. Before you start adding layers of commands, get the basic structure of the map figured out. It's really hard to think about how cross-map nuclear bombardments will work if you don't have a map that people are happy with to begin with. I bet once you have a kick-ass design, you won't feel the need for the whistles and bells.

And consider working backwards.

First, figure out how and where you want your basic commands. In some cases, political countries make sense - Germany, France, and the UK are logical countries to turn into commands. What you did with "Former Yugoslavia" was wise - group small countries together to make a larger, more inclusive command. However, you could have expanded that command to include more countries and called it the Balkans - a term that current residents of the area might have a better reaction to than "Yugoslavia."

Next, configure your commands to have a mix of large and small bonuses. I'd say that on a map this size you would want to have no more than seven or eight or so commands that are +1 or +2... and no more than ten-twelve commands that give +1, +2, or +3. You want players to scramble for them early in games, and in a 12p game it's OK if somebody has bad luck and has to go after a +3. You don't want to have the small commands all clustered together, because if they are the first player to get a bonus is going to easily overwhelm the neighboring bonus. Spread them out across the map so that there is action everywhere.

edit: almost forgot this piece... At this point you need to think about impassables. Mountain ranges and rivers should go between commands to limit their borders, not in the middle of commands to limit movement.

If you still want to have major capital bonuses, you should have even fewer small commands, because everybody will have quick access to extra troops. I actually like the capitals bonus idea for this map - it means large commands still have appeal. For example, if Russia was one huge command players would still commit resources to holding the region that got the Moscow bonus.

After that, the commands should be harder to take, so that players have to be strategic about how they use their troops. Look at the Classic maps: the easiest bonus to hold is Australia, and anybody would be happy to start there... but then what do you do? Controlling Australia and getting the quick bonus does not guarantee the win. On this map, I think it's OK to have a big Russia command next to the South Caucasus +1, or a big Balkans command next to a small Greece +1. Iceland gives a quick bonus - why not make the British Isles and Scandinavia harder to conquer? Portugal could be buried under a behind Spain & Andorra command.

Finally, now that you know where your commands should be and how big they should be, start drawing the borders between regions within those commands.

Right now, I think this map is making the choices really for players; abandon the center of the map, grab as many little bonuses as you can, hope that you get better luck than the guy who's doing the same thing on the other side of the map. There's no challenge to that. Give players something to think about - yes, I conquered Iceland, but now I'm stuck in Iceland. Yes, I control the South Caucasus, but do I now attack the eight regions of Turkey or do I attack the ten regions of Russia?
 
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thenoahw

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I didn't mean having more than one capital in a nation. The idea is to have several nation commands nested inside of the larger region commands (indicated by the color groups in post 37) so I mean the eastern Europe, being so vast, can have more than 1 capital. I didn't mean putting multiple capitals within a nation command.
 

thenoahw

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These maps are the ones I currently have and they are pending change to the regions.
The nation bonuses are pretty much established though I might take out the +1 nation commands (which is why I put those in there smaller). The nation and region worths are explained in the spreadsheet I posted before. The black dots in certain territories are the largest cities in their regions and also represent capitals of the nation commands their territory belongs to. These capital cities can bombard the regions in their nation commands as well as other capitals. upon reaching 0 the targets will become a neutral territory. On the region map, the light greens, light blues, and pinks indicate a territory that it not part of a nation command but one that must be held for a player to receive the region command bonus.
 

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OneEyed

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thenoahw, there are no changes. as nation bonuses also region bonuses are wrong. also capitals are placed wrong.
lets look at this from the smallest bonuses, nation capitals. Russia has two capials? would be Stockholm better as Oslo?
nation bonuses, Ireland with one region gives +1 as Iceland with 3 regions or Sweden with 3 regions? where is nation bonus Russia? the centre of map will be again not important - Slovakia, Czech republic, Hungary, Austria and so on gives again nothing.
region bonuses, Turkey is again wrong as part of Southern europe, Northern europe is again setup wrong and Eastern europe again takes half of map.

OneEyed

PS: why you do not want to go with map posted by you in post number 53? here is that map with some changes which I did in 15 minutes.
europa_1_0.png


the bold names are national bonuses (benelux, baltics, caucasus are not nations, but for gameplay it could works). other names are additions and needed for holding regional bonus. the map is only "how it could be"made in 15 minutes, it needs changes, so take it please like any example.
 
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Cardinalsrule

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you HAVE to do something about those terts in the middle of the board that aren't a part of any command. (Like Shep said). Either make a command out of them, or join them to other commands around them.


Just make a +3w or +4 (since it'd be really hard to defend) command and call it "central Europe" or something.....


same with the terts below Romania - join them to the Balkans maybe?
 
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Shepherd

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I agree with Cards and OneEyed. The dead regions in the middle of the map aren't good for gameplay, nor are all of the small commands in Russia. And our European players (of whom there are many) are never going to let us hear the end of it if we put cities and borders in the wrong place!
:damnmate:

I also have a question about the shapes and configurations of the regions themselves: are they based on anything? In looking at the map that you used as a base - the one that have Europe divided into hundreds (thousands?) of smaller regions, at first I thought that the map showed real political regions - but it doesn't. I fear that you've based your map on completely arbitrary information.

Take, for example, the border that splits Portugal into two regions on your map; looking back at your early drafts, there are 20+ smaller "regions" in Portugal, but in reality there are 18 Districts in Portugal - and they look nothing like the map you used. This might be contributing to the problems you are having that OneEyed pointed out as far as accuracy.

200px-PortugalNumbered.png
 

thenoahw

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Ok, I am completely redoing the map from the beginning but the one thing I will address is the map I am using to define my territories. Shepherd, I understand the concern and I did look at the map closely.

When I was making my original territory map I was looking up the geographic regions and political subdivisions of every nation to make the territories accurate. As I was filing in the micro-spaces on that map to match the ones I chose from the internet search, a surprising number of the borders corresponded to real political nation borders and subdivisions. So, it appears as though whoever made this map took a map of geographical regions/political subdivisions and then arbitrarily divided those to make hundreds or thousands of like-sized areas. So yes,although the map seems very unreliable, when turning it into a nation-by-nation region map it is pretty accurate.

In reference to Portugal for example, I used a map very similar to the one you posted:
Portuguese_municipalities_districts.PNG

but I had to group the southern 8 regions together for tert size purposes. and the map made this doable with fairly descent accuracy. There were many other places though, such as Russia, where the spaces aligned almost perfectly with the federal districts.


My new maps should be up tomorrow. My apologies for the offense and misunderstandings
 

thenoahw

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Here are the new maps and the spreadsheet with the territory and region info.
My problem right now is that I cannot decide which nations to give their own command and which ones just to leave as a region command. I was definitely considering dropping the Turkey and Caucasus commands and making that strictly a region command because it is only a total of 10 terts I think. After that, I just cannot decide which nation bonuses to omit because there are just so many.
 

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OneEyed

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Here are the new maps and the spreadsheet with the territory and region info.
My problem right now is that I cannot decide which nations to give their own command and which ones just to leave as a region command.

much better.
about nation commands. its not so hard, you must have enough space to divide state (with space for name, containers) :).
you have it now fine, maybe some nation commands could be added (by country size, importance, gameplay).
could here be 4 kinds of bonuses?
capitals
nation commands (without capitals), here could be also added commands like Caucasusu, Benelux...
nation commands with capitals
regional commands (I think regional commands is better name as region commands, because region is name for each territory in map)
I was definitely considering dropping the Turkey and Caucasus commands and making that strictly a region command because it is only a total of 10 terts I think.

I think Turkey could be nation command with capital. the Caucasus could be also command. and Cyprus could be added. maybe divide it to Northern Cyprus and Southern Cyprus, this gives more regions for this regional command.
After that, I just cannot decide which nation bonuses to omit because there are just so many.

Russia could be independent command divided to several "districts". also I still think that Iberia could be added to Southern Europe.
now lets count a litttle.
Western Europe has two nation commands with capitals (France, UK). Benelux could be one "nation" command. then Ireland and Switzerland are needed for regional command.
Central Europe has one nation command with capital (Germany). Poland could be nation command. then there are four countries with no bonus or just needed for regional command. I think that Czech republic, Slovakia and Hungary could be next "nation" command (as I made it) and Austria needed for regional command.
Northern Europe has one nation command with capital. I think there could be two these commands, Sweden is realy good choice for another one. I would like to see Helsinky instead Oslo, in the easte part of map are less capitals (but this is just my opinion). so if you decide to make also Sweden nation command with capital, here could be two nation commands with capital (Norway, Sweden), two nation commands (Finland, Iceland) and Denmark needed for regional command.
Southern Europe, if also Iberia could be added there will be two nation commands with capital (Spain, Italy), two nation commands (Portugal, Greece) and Andorra, Malta needed for regional command. I realy think that Iberia as independent command could be changed.
Southeastern Europe has one nation command with capital (Romania) and one nation command (Bulgaria). I am not sure what with "former Yugoslavia". make it as next nation command? and only Albania needed for regional bonus.
as I wrote Russia could be nation command with capital divided to districts.
could be next command Eastern Europe with one nation command with capital (Ukraine), one national Belorussia (maybe also Baltics) and Moldavia needed for regional bonus?

OneEyed
 

thenoahw

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I wasn't concerned with space, Shepherd warned that it could be a mess if the map was composed of so many small nation commands. Here is what I have currently:
North Europe
Norway (5)
Finland (5)
-Iceland (3) Nation bonus?
-Denmark (1)
- Sweden (3) Nation bonus?

West Europe
United Kingdom (5)
France (5)
-Ireland (2) Nation bonus?
-Belgium/Luxemburg/Netherlands (2) Nation bonus?
-Switzerland (1)
-Corsica (1) Include in France?

Central Europe
Germany (4)
Poland (5)
-Landlocked Nations (4) Nation bonus?

Balkans
West Balkans (6)
Romania (4)
-Bulgaria (2) Nation bonus?
-Albania (1) Include in West Balkans?

South Europe
Italy (4)
Greece (3)
-Sardinia (1) Include in Italy?
-Crete (1) Include in Greece?

Iberia (Include in Southern Europe?)
Spain (6)
Portugal (2) Nation bonus?
-Balearic Islands (1) Include in Spain?

Eastern Europe
Russia (7)
Ukraine (5)
-Moldova (1) Include in Ukraine?
-Belarus (2) Nation bonus?
-Baltic States (3) Nation bonus?
-Prussia (1) Include in Baltic States?

Southeast Europe/Southwest Asia
Turkey (7)
-Caucasus (3) Nation bonus?
-Cyprus (1) Include on map at all? Include in Turkey?

What I would most like to see would be this:
North Europe
Norway (5)
Finland (5)
Iceland (3)
Extras: Sweden/Denmark (4)

West Europe
United Kingdom (5)
France (5)
Ireland (2)
Belgium/Luxemburg/Netherlands (2)
Extras: Switzerland/Corsica (2)

Central Europe
Germany (4)
Poland (5)
Landlocked Nations (4)

Balkans
West Balkans (6)
Romania (4)
Extras: Bulgaria/Albania (3)

South Europe
Italy (4)
Greece (3)
Extras: Sardinia/Crete (2)

Iberia (Include in Southern Europe?)
Spain (6)
Portugal (2)
Extras: Balearic Islands (1)

Eastern Europe
Russia (7)
Ukraine (5)
Belarus (2)
Baltic States (3)
Extras: Prussia/Moldova (2)

Southeast Europe/Southwest Asia
Turkey (7)
Caucasus (3)
Extras: Cyprus (1)

I'll have a map of my suggested board soon
 
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thenoahw

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here is my ideal game map at this time
 

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OneEyed

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I wasn't concerned with space, Shepherd warned that it could be a mess if the map was composed of so many small nation commands. Here is what I have currently:

about 8 small commands could be fine. also would you like to do "extras" states as one region?
What I would most like to see would be this:

ok, lets work with this.
North Europe
Norway (5)
Finland (5)
Iceland (3)
Extras: Sweden/Denmark (4)

I think that Northern europe could have two capitals.
if you made Iceland as nation command (without capital), Sweden can not be extras. Sweden is much more important country as Iceland.
what about:
Sweden, Finland - national commands with capitals
Norway - national command
Iceland, Denmark - extras
West Europe
United Kingdom (5)
France (5)
Ireland (2)
Belgium/Luxemburg/Netherlands (2)
Extras: Switzerland/Corsica (2)

add Corsica to France, please. if you will do USA map, do you cut off California from USA?
Ireland could be also extras (one region), with Switzerland.
Central Europe
Germany (4)
Poland (5)
Landlocked Nations (4)

here is no extras.
Germany - nation command with capital
Poland - nation command
its hard to make any real command from as you call them landlocked nations.
Balkans
West Balkans (6)
Romania (4)
Extras: Bulgaria/Albania (3)

West balkans is too big and without capital.
South Europe
Italy (4)
Greece (3)
Extras: Sardinia/Crete (2)

Southern europe without Iberia is too small, I think. if you compare it with other parts of Europe.
again please, Sardinia belongs to Italy and Crete to Greece.
Iberia (Include in Southern Europe?)
Spain (6)
Portugal (2)
Extras: Balearic Islands (1)

Iberia will be easy to secure as separate regional bonus, I think.
and again, Balearic islands belongs to Spain.
Eastern Europe
Russia (7)
Ukraine (5)
Belarus (2)
Baltic States (3)
Extras: Prussia/Moldova (2)

Eastern europe is realy huge, but when you can not make Russia as only command ok.
then make Ukraine nation command with capital.
what you call Prussia is part of Russia.
Russia, Ukraine - nation commands with capital
Baltics states - nation command
Belorussia, Moldova - extras
Southeast Europe/Southwest Asia
Turkey (7)
Caucasus (3)
Extras: Cyprus (1)

maybe Cyprus could be divided to Northern and Southern.

this would be a Large Europe map. do you think about states as Andorra, Malta, San Marino?
what do you like to see as priority, to hold nation commands or regional commands?

the map is on the good way.

OneEyed
 

thenoahw

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what about:
Sweden, Finland - national commands with capitals
Norway - national command
Iceland, Denmark - extras
I can live with this suggestion

Ireland could be also extras (one region)
I would like to keep Ireland as two regions mostly because in reality Ireland is in two pieces.

Germany - nation command with capital
Poland - nation command
its hard to make any real command from as you call them landlocked nations.
I was trying NOT to make central Europe into any extras. Last time I did that I had three people breathing down my neck for making the centre of the continent worthless.

West balkans is too big and without capital.
I disagree, The Capitals are there to represent the largest capital cities by population, not the capital cities of the largest nations (or in this case, the largest group of nations). I do not see any reason why we cant have this big nation command without a capital. It makes it different from the rest of the map, go Balkans!

Southern europe without Iberia is too small, I think. if you compare it with other parts of Europe.
again please, Sardinia belongs to Italy and Crete to Greece.
Iberia will be easy to secure as separate regional bonus, I think.
and again, Balearic islands belongs to Spain.
I see the benefit of combining South Euro and Iberia but you are saying that it is too small compared to the rest of Europe. Southeast Europe though has the same number of terts and defending points but no one seems to have a problem with that. I dont mean that I am going to be 100% against combining Southern Europe and Iberia, but it isn't the only small region we have on the map. But also, if we do combine the two, then we have to take something away from one of those four nations (Portugal, Spain, Italy, or Greece) to give the region some extra terts so that holding the nations does not give the players the whole region. That is why I continue to separate the Balearics, Sardinia, and Crete from their proper nations. I am not denying that they are part of their nations, what I am showing is that they are not part of the mainland of their nations, which makes a big difference. If I were to set out to take over Spain in real life and I conquered all but the Balearics, I would say that I had succeeded. Not because I had every piece of land that was claimed by Spain, but because I controlled 97% of it. The same goes for Sardinia and Crete. They are isolated from the mainland and that makes a big difference in Risk which is, at its core, supposed to represent basic land warfare.

Eastern europe is realy huge, but when you can not make Russia as only command ok.
Russia is its own command, I am sorry that the old lines make this confusing. All of the land area that is part of western Russia today is to be included in the Russia command with a capital in Moscow. Russia is going to be one of the largest nations on the map both in territory size, number of territories. It is important for there to be a capital in Moscow so that there is still some value in the area early in the game.

then make Ukraine nation command with capital.
My suggested map did not show it because theletters covered it up but Kiev is supposed to be on the map as a capital in Ukraine.

what you call Prussia is part of Russia.
I suggested either making it part of the Baltics or an extra for the same reason I spoke of with the Balearics, Crete, and Sardinia. Except this time it doesn't make sense to include it in the Russia command because it cannot be connected by land. And I personally am not a favor of split commands like that. It makes more sense to make it an extra or to add it to the Baltics.

Baltics states - nation command
Belorussia, Moldova - extras
I can agree here

maybe Cyprus could be divided to Northern and Southern.
this would be a Large Europe map. do you think about states as Andorra, Malta, San Marino?
I want to see Cyprus added into the map (especially if you will let me get away with putting Turkey and Southwestern Asia on the Europa-Land map). I do not see a reason to split it though. I understand that in reality it is split but that would make the colours of the terts so small they wouldn't be recognizable. I think in this case, unlike Ireland, it makes more sense to make the tiny island one tert. With Andorra and San Marino, I think that is just too much. That would be too small. we would have to make those small nations look so large on the map that they would crowd the terts they border. I want to hear what the other guys have to say about it but this map, I think, is just about big enough. At 109 terts, I think the map is large and inclusive enough. Malta though, I could see the room for.

what do you like to see as priority, to hold nation commands or regional commands?
Personally, I envision a game where the mad dash for nations at the beginning of the game turns into an East-West or North-South battle of the bloc by the later game. I want the nations to be the goal in the aggressive opening game but the regions to be the focus during the strategic end game. That is what I have been imagining from the start.

I hope that I answered all of your questions and explained any misunderstandings and all of my points well.
Thanks for the feedback OneEyed, please, keep it coming.
 
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OneEyed

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I would like to keep Ireland as two regions mostly because in reality Ireland is in two pieces.

yes, Ireland is divided on two parts, but one part (Northern Ireland) belongs to United Kingdom. therefore the rest of Ireland could be one region (extras).
I was trying NOT to make central Europe into any extras. Last time I did that I had three people breathing down my neck for making the centre of the continent worthless.

I think it is good idea to make regional commands everywhere. the problem with these four states was that they add no bonus. please try to look at map I posted. I made Czech republics, Slovakia and Hungary next "nation" command (V4 states, originaly including also Poland, but Poland is nation command) and make Austria extras. we will see what other guys say.
I disagree, The Capitals are there to represent the largest capital cities by population, not the capital cities of the largest nations (or in this case, the largest group of nations). I do not see any reason why we cant have this big nation command without a capital. It makes it different from the rest of the map, go Balkans!

the capitals are capitals. in whole map. how you can do Belgrade capital for Chroatia? Balkan needs to be solved. please keep in mind that it is modern Europe map.
I see the benefit of combining South Euro and Iberia but you are saying that it is too small compared to the rest of Europe. Southeast Europe though has the same number of terts and defending points but no one seems to have a problem with that. I dont mean that I am going to be 100% against combining Southern Europe and Iberia, but it isn't the only small region we have on the map. But also, if we do combine the two, then we have to take something away from one of those four nations (Portugal, Spain, Italy, or Greece) to give the region some extra terts so that holding the nations does not give the players the whole region.

Iberia has 10 regions (including capital), South Europe has 10 regions, Southeast Europe (better call it Asian part?) has 12 regions (if Cyprus could be divided 13 regions).
if Iberia will be included to South Europe, Portugal could be as extras I think. because if Portugal will be nation command with Spain it could be easy to secure. thoughts?
That is why I continue to separate the Balearics, Sardinia, and Crete from their proper nations. I am not denying that they are part of their nations, what I am showing is that they are not part of the mainland of their nations, which makes a big difference. If I were to set out to take over Spain in real life and I conquered all but the Balearics, I would say that I had succeeded. Not because I had every piece of land that was claimed by Spain, but because I controlled 97% of it. The same goes for Sardinia and Crete. They are isolated from the mainland and that makes a big difference in Risk which is, at its core, supposed to represent basic land warfare.

I understand you, but at the first when there will be sea connections with mainlands there is not problem that islands are not part of mainland. at the second these are part of states. try to take Corsica from France, do you think that French will be glad that they still holds 97% of state? :)
here I must disagree that Risk is about land warfare. especialy when we could do any map as warfare.
Russia is its own command, I am sorry that the old lines make this confusing. All of the land area that is part of western Russia today is to be included in the Russia command with a capital in Moscow. Russia is going to be one of the largest nations on the map both in territory size, number of territories. It is important for there to be a capital in Moscow so that there is still some value in the area early in the game.

ok, and will be Russia also separate regional command or nation command (with capital) as part of Eastern Europe regional command?
My suggested map did not show it because theletters covered it up but Kiev is supposed to be on the map as a capital in Ukraine.

ok.
I suggested either making it part of the Baltics or an extra for the same reason I spoke of with the Balearics, Crete, and Sardinia. Except this time it doesn't make sense to include it in the Russia command because it cannot be connected by land. And I personally am not a favor of split commands like that. It makes more sense to make it an extra or to add it to the Baltics.

if Russia will be regional command, Kaliningrad could be extras for it. if Russia will be part of Eastern Europe command then make Kaliningrad extras for it.
I want to see Cyprus added into the map (especially if you will let me get away with putting Turkey and Southwestern Asia on the Europa-Land map). I do not see a reason to split it though. I understand that in reality it is split but that would make the colours of the terts so small they wouldn't be recognizable. I think in this case, unlike Ireland, it makes more sense to make the tiny island one tert.

you are right, Cyprus is divided to two parts. and this adds one more extras region. about Ireland I wrote upper.
With Andorra and San Marino, I think that is just too much. That would be too small. we would have to make those small nations look so large on the map that they would crowd the terts they border. I want to hear what the other guys have to say about it but this map, I think, is just about big enough. At 109 terts, I think the map is large and inclusive enough. Malta though, I could see the room for.

Andorra is very nice made in Cold War Europe map. for Malta will be also enough space. San Marino, Vatican, Monaco could be out, agreed.
Personally, I envision a game where the mad dash for nations at the beginning of the game turns into an East-West or North-South battle of the bloc by the later game. I want the nations to be the goal in the aggressive opening game but the regions to be the focus during the strategic end game. That is what I have been imagining from the start.

I asked, because bonuses for command could be set up on importance.
if nation commands will be more important then maybe "extras" loose importance. if regional commands will have more importance then "extras" could have also more importance. I mean this:
France gives 5 troops (4 for state and 1 autodeploy to Paris), UK gives 4 troops (3 for state and 1 autodeploy to London), Benelux gives 1 troop this is 10 troops together. how much troops gives Ireland and Switzerland? 2? so Western Europe will give 12?
or make nation bonus lesser France 4, UK 3, Benelux 1 = 8 and with Ireland, Switzerland 11? thoughts?

OneEyed
 

thenoahw

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yes, Ireland is divided on two parts, but one part (Northern Ireland) belongs to United Kingdom. therefore the rest of Ireland could be one region (extras).
you are right, Cyprus is divided to two parts. and this adds one more extras region.
I just think it makes more sense to divide Ireland than Cyprus. Both are divided in real life but Ireland has more space to do it though. If we are going to get three terts out of these two nations that I would rather it be Ireland 2, Cyprus 1

I think it is good idea to make regional commands everywhere.
Agreed

the problem with these four states was that they add no bonus. please try to look at map I posted. I made Czech republics, Slovakia and Hungary next "nation" command (V4 states, originaly including also Poland, but Poland is nation command) and make Austria extras.
I had to look up what V4 nations meant before I responded. I planned on having Czech, Slovakia, Hungary, and Austria be a "nation" bonus and to call it the "landlocked nations" or something. But I like your idea of leaving Austria out and having at least one extra in that Central Europe region.

the capitals are capitals. in whole map. how you can do Belgrade capital for Chroatia? Balkan needs to be solved. please keep in mind that it is modern Europe map.
Belgrade is a large Capital I just wanted to be careful about putting too many capitals on the map, especially so close together

Iberia has 10 regions (including capital), South Europe has 10 regions, Southeast Europe (better call it Asian part?) has 12 regions (if Cyprus could be divided 13 regions).
if Iberia will be included to South Europe, Portugal could be as extras I think. because if Portugal will be nation command with Spain it could be easy to secure. thoughts?
I like this, I can agree to that.

ok, and will be Russia also separate regional command or nation command (with capital) as part of Eastern Europe regional command?
if Russia will be regional command, Kaliningrad could be extras for it. if Russia will be part of Eastern Europe command then make Kaliningrad extras for it.
I dont think we should make Russia its own region. It is no larger in tert count than France so I think it should stay with Eastern Europe and Kaliningrad should be an extra for the region.

Andorra is very nice made in Cold War Europe map. for Malta will be also enough space. San Marino, Vatican, Monaco could be out, agreed.
I will work on getting Andorra in the map. And Malta.

I asked, because bonuses for command could be set up on importance.
if nation commands will be more important then maybe "extras" loose importance. if regional commands will have more importance then "extras" could have also more importance. I mean this:
France gives 5 troops (4 for state and 1 autodeploy to Paris), UK gives 4 troops (3 for state and 1 autodeploy to London), Benelux gives 1 troop this is 10 troops together. how much troops gives Ireland and Switzerland? 2? so Western Europe will give 12?
or make nation bonus lesser France 4, UK 3, Benelux 1 = 8 and with Ireland, Switzerland 11? thoughts?
"Benelux" that was another thing I had to look up before responding. This is why I was having trouble putting values for the commands in the earlier maps. Because I could not decide. In my first versions I did not give any nation higher than a +3 (not including the capital autodeploy). But I decided for nations like France and Turkey, this just was not enough. So the nation bonuses now go up to +4. But what you said about how you think we could figure out the region bonuses, that is similar to how I was thinking about it before. I think we are on the same page with this.
 

thenoahw

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Compromise

* = Nation Bonus with a Capital City (Autodeploy +1)

North Europe
Sweden* (3)
Finland* (5)
Norway (5)
Extras: Iceland (3) Denmark (1)

West Europe
United Kingdom* (6)
France* (7)
Greater Belgium (2)
Extras: “Southern” Ireland (1) Switzerland (1)

Central Europe
Germany* (4)
Poland (5)
V4 (3)
Extras: Austria (1)

Balkans
West Balkans* (6)
Romania* (4)
Extras: Bulgaria (2) Albania (1)

South Europe
Italy* (5)
Spain* (7)
Greece (4)
Extras: Portugal (2) Malta (1) Andorra (1)

Eastern Europe
Russia* (7)
Ukraine* (5)
Baltic States (3)
Extras: Moldova (1) Belarus (2) Kaliningrad (1)

Southeast Europe/Southwest Asia
Turkey* (7)
Caucasus (3)
Extras: Cyprus (1)
 

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Sebrim

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i Noah! I like your work, and many of the problems have been eliminated. Now, I have some smaller points, which I think should be addressed:

Let's start in the Southwest:

a) Andorra is accessible from both the North and the South. And, a general point: Mountain barriers seldom go all the way to the sea. What you could do, woiuld be to allow access from Catalonia to Provence, from Basque Country to Aquitaine, from Andorra to Acquitaine and from Andorra to Catalonia, but not from Andorra to Provence or from Acquitaine to Catalonia.

b) Further East, from Southern Idaly to Greece, the sea route should go to Peloponnes, , I thinknot mainland Greece. Crete should be connected with Cyprus. If we stick to the warfare theme, then it's unlikely that the sea connection from Greece goes to Istanbul, but rather to mainland Turkey. I would defintely make European Tureky a stand-alone region, connected to Izmir, but not to the territory east of Istanbul - which is only accessibhle through Istanbul.

c) The sea connection from Istanbul should go to the Crimea island, and there needs to be a sea connection from Krasnodar to Crimea. The sea connection from mainland Ukraine to Crimea is unnecessary, as Crimea is connected by land with Ukraine.

d) Russian Caucasu should definitely be subdivided a bit. For example Dagestan/Chechnya in the East, region Krasnodar in the West and region Stavropol in the middle. Stavropol wouldn't have any connections to the south, Dag/Chech only to Azerbaijan and Krasnodar only to Georgia.

e) Scandinavia: the sea connections are very unnatural. Helsinki needs to be at the Finnish South Coast and connected to North coast of Estonia. Stockholm is further inland (behind a lot of small islands, actually), and the sea connections don't reach Stockholm. The sea connection between Denmark and Stockholm is not there, but should go to Skane, directly across the strait. A connection between Denmark and Southern Norway is needed. The connections from Scotland to Iceland and Norway should leave from the other side of Scotland. The Norwegian port is in Fjordland, not Trondelag, i.e. one tert further south.

f) The German internal terts need to be differrently organised, but it won't make any difference to the connections, so that's a graphic issue.
 

OneEyed

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* = Nation Bonus with a Capital City (Autodeploy +1)

I assume capitals are included in regions number.
North Europe
Sweden* (3)
Finland* (5)
Norway (5)
Extras: Iceland (3) Denmark (1)

sweden is most important country in scandinavia. it could be divided to more regions, i think.
five regions for norway are too much, i think. basicaly each regional command has small command from three regions. norway could be divided to 4, maybe 3 regions?
its not needed to divide iceland to three regions. maybe two could be fine.

sweden* 5
finland* 5
norway 4/3
iceland 2/1, denmark 1

northern e. 17/15
West Europe
United Kingdom* (6)
France* (7)
Greater Belgium (2)
Extras: “Southern” Ireland (1) Switzerland (1)

maybe united kingdom could has five regions?
southern ireland is just ireland :).
greater belgium could be benelux and include also luxemburg there.

united kingdom* 5/6
france* 7
benelux 3
ireland 1, switzerland 1

western e. 17/18
Central Europe
Germany* (4)
Poland (5)
V4 (3)
Extras: Austria (1)

poland could not be greater as germany, i think.
germany could be also five regions.

germany* 5
poland* 4/5
v4 countries 3
austria 1

central e. 13/14
Balkans
West Balkans* (6)
Romania* (4)
Extras: Bulgaria (2) Albania (1)

west balkans could be divided a little. could be serbia made as independent small command? with kosovo as one of its region?

romania* 4
west balkan 5
serbia 3
bulgaria 2/1, albania 1

balkans 15/14
South Europe
Italy* (5)
Spain* (7)
Greece (4)
Extras: Portugal (2) Malta (1) Andorra (1)

maybe greece could be from three regions? is malta needed?

italy* 5
spain* 7
greece 4/3
portugal 2/1, andorra 1, malta 1

southern e. 20/18
Eastern Europe
Russia* (7)
Ukraine* (5)
Baltic States (3)
Extras: Moldova (1) Belarus (2) Kaliningrad (1)

seven regions for russia is little. european russia is large as half of the rest europe...
what about crimea? it is disputed area, but belongs to russia.
russia * 9
ukraine* 6
baltics 3
belarussia 1, kaliningrad 1, moldavia 1, crimea 1?

eastern e. 22?
Southeast Europe/Southwest Asia
Turkey* (7)
Caucasus (3)
Extras: Cyprus (1)

good.

one question, will be all "extras" as one region, or some of them could be divided to two?

later i will look at sea routes. do you think about ships or sea regions especialy where are sea routes long?

OneEyed
 
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Shepherd

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This is looking a lot better - the commands and bonuses are far simpler.

I too am a bit confused by "extras." At first I thought (having not read the last few days of really long posts) that Cyprus gave an additional +1 to Turkey as an "extra", but that's not Iceland does. And - what makes Sweden a country worthy of a bonus yet Iceland is an "Extra" (which gets the same bonus)?

Maybe I'm reading you wrong - apologies if I am - but if regions like Cyprus get their own bonus, then there are a lot of single regions that warrant a +1 just by holding a single region. I don't like that for a number of reasons, inlcuding:

First, it means you need to code all of those region neutral to start the game, in addition to the cities which also need to start neutral. Also, because of the way the game engine is set up, any two-region command will have to start the game with one of the regions coded neutral - Portugal, the Austria-Switzerland thing, Iceland if you follow OneEyed's suggestion (don't), etc. By starting 20+ regions neutral in every game, the advantages of creating a large map (lots of regions, good for 12 players, bad luck to start the game isn't a death sentence) are lost.

Second, those regions now become the most important on the map to start the game. You conquer one region and you get a +1 to place anywhere - not just an auto-deploy on the cities which may or may not be a game-changer.

Third, look at the countries in question. There is only one way to attack Cyprus, so whoever gets the neighboring region at the drop to start the game now has an unfair advantage. Same with whoever drops Northern Ireland, and Northern Germany, since the Oslo region has to start neutral. This is not well thought out.

There needs to be another solution to making Cyprus (et. al.) relevant in the game. For example, politically Cyprus is divided into a Greek and Turkish side. However, I still hate two region commands. What would be more interesting historically and politically would be to make Cyprus a +1 to a player who also holds all of Greece, OR to a player who also holds all of Turkey. Then make a sea route from Cyprus to Crete to add connectivity. That would give Cyprus value without making it a world power as it is right now.

Oh, and personally I'm OK with Russia the way you have it right now. Th big regions might look odd, but they will play just fine. Don't over-value the bonus for that command just because it covers a lot of land; the bonus should be based on the number of regions, and borders it has to defend, just like every other command. Yes, it may be hard to take, but the big regions mean quick movement between northern and south-eastern Europe, which in itself is an advantage.
 
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OneEyed

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just qucik answer about "extras".
lets work with Turkey, Caucasus, Cyprus.
hold Turkey for its bonus. hold Caucasus for its bonus. and only after you hold these two commands and you take Cyprus you get bonus for Southeastern Europe command.
so extras could be starting positions. only capitals need start as neutral.

OneEyed
 
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