The inevitable evolution debate thread

[Evan]

I believe that there is a God and that he/she/it is responsible for the big bang and the onset of evolution. I also believe that he/she it exists not as any tangible form to humans but rather as "energy". I also believe that he/she/it existed at one point in the form of a human. What most call the Mosiah. I also believe that the Mosiah will return in the form of a human marking the end of the current form of Earth.

My source:
The bible, and a few other poorly interpreted pieces of information from other religions. Based on my own twisted interpretation and mostly my own imagination that took what was probably fact and ran away with it.

Mostly, my version just makes more sense to me than your version .


Somewhat OT: I have a friend/colleague who wrote an amazing book which talking about this subject in a way. He is a highly respected Neuroscientist and Author. He heads the Neuroscience lab at Baylor. His name is Dr. David Eagleman. As you might be able to tell, I'm proud to know him. Anyways, I will get off his cock and get to the point. His book, "Sum: 40 tales from the afterlife" is very interesting. It is a book of fiction. It is an AMAZING read for anyone who has a brain. It is a very spiritual book. Influenced by his own and other religios backgrounds. but it comes from the mind of an educated scientist.

It is a great book. Was a best seller in UK, a few other countries, and did very well in USA. His new book is called Incognito (I don't know if its good, but he'd want me to push his new book, not his old one)

I suggest everybody read SUM, and then return and have this debate over again. If you have the time, also read Genesis, Proverbs, and Revelations from the New Jeruselum Bible as well as the Deuterocanonical books from the Holy Bible (New Jeruselem has them). But for those anti-bible (and everyone else), definitely read SUM.

 

[Shepherd]

But for those anti-bible...

It's a shame that so many people are, indeed, "anti-bible." Whether or not you believe there is literal truth in the stories of the bible - or any other sacred text - it is a fascinating document that has had a profound and lasting impact on human civilization. It should at least be appreciated on that level. It's like saying you're anti-African diaspora or anti-WWII... sorry, but it's already happened. Deal with it.

Just as you don't have to be Christian to respect the impact that the bible has had and to respect those who believe in it, you don't have to be an atheist (agnostic, etc.) to respect the science behind evolution.

 

[ORBOTRON]

Very good points Shep. Respect is what this debate sorely lacks. I would go a step further and say that both sides need to respect the science and the world view of the opposition, as there is real faith and real science on both sides.

 

[AAFitz]

I agree here. I am who I am because of the bible, and especially the New Testament. In fact, in a complicated irony, it is because of my growing up Christian, that I am so passionate about the issue of evolution, and what I consider to be the delusion of a young earth. As a Christian, I believe that the most important message, was to love your brothers and sisters, and in doing so, protect them from harm. I believe that ignoring the science, that most, and certainly I have come to trust, is akin to blasphemy, and possibly as sinful as depraved indifference.

I believe our science, has conclusively proven that the Earth is indeed older than 6000 years, and while in the billions its debatable, at 6000 or 10000 it absolutely isnt. I believe those who choose to ignore such science, and therefore, all science defacto, are guilty of ignoring the most prominent threats to all mankind. For whether one believes in the young earth or evolution, I simply feel that the implications of the latter, and an old earth, which has extensive and actual scientific evidence to back it up, requires one to take the threats seriously.

I believe the evidence so strong for a billions old earth and universe, and for issues such as global warming, that ignoring such things even out of simple ignorance in blind faith, is absolutely unforgivable. Throughout history, religion has clouded the real issue at hand, as it did in the plague and absolutely sidetracked, actual progress, in protecting what God clearly loves the most, and that is absolutely, without a doubt, his children.

I believe that anyone who professes and actually believes in God, must inherently, and completely know this to be true on some level. I myself, consider it to be self evident. I myself see an exact mirror of the situation with the plague, where some completely ignored the scientific approach, and instead resorted to the supernatural, namely blaming witches, and further killing innocent children of God. Again, the damage done to the human race is almost incalculable, especially when one considers the number of people that could have been saved, by a rational, scientific approach, as opposed to the supernatural witchhunt.

I now find the world in the same place. The science behind climate change is not perfect, but it certainly has shown some frightening patterns, which have the possible consequence of not killing 20% of Gods children, but leaving only 20%, or in other scenarios, much, much less. I simply believe the consequences of the science of evolution, not only of animals and man, but of the planet itself, to be so high, as to demand on an actual basic level of good, to be considered, by all. I believe that with the stakes so high, it is as I said, and actual sin against Man, and God, to not consider them, and research them properly. I believe to perpetuate, a myth, that was penned 6000 years ago, by men, who simply cannot be trusted, is again, absolute blasphemy, to anyone who actually believes in a God.

I myself, have been shielded from such things having been raised in essentially the heartland of education of the world, and having been taught to think for myself, and logically, regardless of what others around me, including my parents happened to believe. I simply have seen enough in history, that has absolutely shown how absolutely untrustworthy the human Word can be. They will say anything, do anything, perpetuate anything to further their own cause, whether it be good, or evil. For me, I have simply seen too many examples of people, and groups of people, and entire civilizations, believe in things that have absolutely not been true, to fully trust what any individual document says, especially after having been edited, and essentially, corrupted.

I myself understand that I cannot possibly know if there is truly a God, or not. I certainly understand the science of evolution well enough to know that many variables exist, so that understanding it fully, is beyond difficult, and possibly bordering on impossible. I also understand however, that humans have a much easier time, simply not ever challenging their belief system, and that psychologically they are essentially predisposed not to. To challenge ones own entire belief system, is a painful, possibly dangerous thing. The human brain relies on a basic understanding of the world, and questioning it, can cause it real, even physical pain. Because of this, human beliefs, even the strongest of them, simply cannot be trusted. The fact that many deeply believe something, simply becomes not evidence of that belief, but simply that those particular people believe. There have simply been too many examples to consider a belief, to be anything more than just that. Unfortunately, humans tend to assume that the more people believe something, the more it must be true, which gives weight, to a great number of beliefs, that simply are not in any way true.

I myself, believe this is the case with the young earth creationists. I believe the only reason there is any support whatsoever is simply that there happen to be enough people who believe it, and try to get others to believe it. I myself have no doubt, that without that belief ingrained early on, that with our current scientific knowledge and access, that no one, would ever come to the conclusion, that the earth is only 6000 years young, because there is only one small piece of evidence that suggests it, which is just one, of many religious texts that exist, and that those who perpetuated that particular book, controlled enough of the world for long enough, for it to continue to exist.

Now, that being said, I do not mean disrespect, because I fully do understand the reasons why people believe the things they do, and fully understand that some of my basic beliefs, absolutely have to be false, just mathematically speaking. I do try very hard to not believe in any particular idea too strongly, however, and try hard to always acknowledge the alternatives possible. I also didnt even realize until a few years ago that there were even people that believed in a young earth, and rejected evolution, which is probably why my ingrained beliefs, are possibly so strong as well. I certainly have had many years to reflect and challenge them, and still can only come to the rational conclusion that there is no way for a young earth theory to be even remotely accurate, given the sheer volume, of nearly irrefutable scientific evidence.

And again, the issue would not even concern me one iota, what other people believed, except for the magnitude of the ramifications on mankind, as they distract people, from the actual science of the world we live in.

 

[WidowMakers]

Mna these are good posts. I really wish all my debate/discussion situatiosn worked out liek this. It is always MUCH more difficult to write out ones feelings and expressions that to speak which makes this so hard.

And while I disagree with some of the things said here, I really wish we could all sit down and talk about this and so many other things. I have made so many friends on conk and now here that it would be great to have a transporter so we could all hang out and chat for a few hours each week.

Thanks to all for the great discussion and stuff to think about.

 

[ORBOTRON]

Lol, I was wondering when you would chime in here fitz. Your post was everything I imagined it to be, thanks for contributing. One of the coolest things for me about this discussion is seeing just how scattered everyone is along the spectrum of belief. There is, of course, the black and white of evolution vs. creation, but the variety of differing ideas on both sides is fascinating to me.

Off Topic: Wids, I was never a part of the conk community so I'm curious, were there ever any gatherings of people IRL? I would guess from the sheer volume of users, it must have at least been attempted. I think it would be a cool thing to do here with MC. Before I moved, I was only about an hour away from Fitz, I'm not sure if anyone else is in striking distance now, but I'm sure they will be in the future.

 

[AAFitz]

Lol, I was wondering when you would chime in here fitz. Your post was everything I imagined it to be, thanks for contributing. One of the coolest things for me about this discussion is seeing just how scattered everyone is along the spectrum of belief. There is, of course, the black and white of evolution vs. creation, but the variety of differing ideas on both sides is fascinating to me.

Off Topic: Wids, I was never a part of the conk community so I'm curious, were there ever any gatherings of people IRL? I would guess from the sheer volume of users, it must have at least been attempted. I think it would be a cool thing to do here with MC. Before I moved, I was only about an hour away from Fitz, I'm not sure if anyone else is in striking distance now, but I'm sure they will be in the future.

Off topic, but I only met one person from CC, and some are within a couple hours....but never really had the time. I did try to hire someone though, because they needed some cash quick, and I didnt want to plant flowers, or as much, be seen doing it. Seriously.

 

[mapguy]

Nice post fitzy,
you voiced a lot of feelings and beliefs that I share. You are truly a thoughtful and wise man.

As for the rest of y'all, I commend your contributions to this surprising civil and entrancing thread.

 

[AAFitz]

I wanted to add this part to the other post, but I simply couldnt, because I broke the rambling meter and I had it on its highest setting.

As I mentioned, the dark ages, seriously impeded mans progress in scientific knowledge. Millions theoretically may have died needlessly because of the devotion to believing in the supernatural, and more importantly, the suppression of real science. However, now that we have embraced scientific progress, and have accelerated through the industrial revolution, it does seem as though, we have done more damage than we probably ever suspected was possible, it does seem that ironically, the dark ages, very possibly could be credited for saving human lives, and possibly even mankind itself. If science was not held back, and science flourished sooner, it is at least possible to speculate, we would have shot past our window for controlling the damage we have done, and that we theoretically, are only here now, because of the lull of progress in the dark ages. In any case, I simply find it mildly curious.

I think the important thing for everyone, no matter what their beliefs, is that we all truly look hard at our very challenged world, and really question all of our beliefs, and really ask ourselves, how we can truly best serve our fellow brothers and sisters on this planet. I do believe this is the entire message of nearly all religions, and again, with or without a belief in a God perse, that it is self evident, and a reward onto itself to do so.

....that being said...I guess Ill go work on my score some more on Majcom...

~to thine own self be true.

 

[Rimbaud]

So some years have past and the site community have changed a lot, so I think it would be interesting to reopen this kind of discussion. If anyone wants it too what should be better? Continue through this thread or make a new one?

 

[WidowMakers]

It never seems to be a thing that can really work out well on the internet. I have tried lol.

But I would recommend anyone read these two books and give their opinion or alternative view or rebuttal to the arguments presented. Both books present TONS of information in regards to their being an intelligent being outside of our universe.
Aspects looked at (not not limited to) are: science, philosophy, ethics, morality, information, origins, etc

God's Undertaker: Has Science Buried God?
John C. Lennox
http://www.amazon.com/Gods-Undertak...C5I_1_2?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1397681642&sr=1-2

I Don't Have Enough Faith to Be an Atheist
Norman L. Geisler & Frank Turek
http://www.amazon.com/Dont-Have-Eno...-1&keywords=not+enough+faith+to+be+an+atheist

There is another one but it is HUGE. Deals with DNA and information. Deals with all the issues of it arising from material causes and not intelligence (as materialism requires)
Signature in the Cell: DNA and the Evidence for Intelligent Design
Stephen C. Meyer
http://www.amazon.com/Signature-Cel...7681810&sr=1-1&keywords=signature+in+the+cell

 

[dudeiamgood]

I guess it pains me to think that people view a person of faith as a person without logic.
My faith is not blind faith. I do not reject logic and common sense.
I do not believe in God just because the Bible says so.

I believe in God because I feel that reality is best explained by a timeless personal creator rather than a mass of mindless eternal random matter.
I use my reason, logic, science, etc to come to this conclusion, NOT blind faith in a book.

Wow same for me what a coincidence.

 

[riskyone]

I guess it pains me to think that people view a person of faith as a person without logic.
My faith is not blind faith. I do not reject logic and common sense.
I do not believe in God just because the Bible says so.

I believe in God because I feel that reality is best explained by a timeless personal creator rather than a mass of mindless eternal random matter.
I use my reason, logic, science, etc to come to this conclusion, NOT blind faith in a book.

brian just pointed out this thread to me and here is my 2 cents. Fact things evolve. Do I believe in a God, I don't use the word believe. For me, it's a know. I never believed, until I was spoken to. The words were ..Get your arms up. Right above my left ear, external and not loud. Saved me from drowning. This was not a thought or intuition. I don't even think it was God. Just something more advanced. Guardian angel? who knows. This is fact. It happened. Total sober. So I went from not believing in anything but science to knowing there is more. We hardly see, hear, or smell what's around us. I say there is God, but we are not a one off experiment. Things are bigger and different then our little minds can handle. Just because we live here doesn't mean we were created here or evolved into Human beings without an alien species intervention to speed things up. None of what I say goes against having a God or knowing that things constantly evolve. Hope I didn't offend, but maybe 1 person now believes something new.

 

[CaptSweatpants]

I don't know if posting to a dead thread makes a lot of sense but I'm always happy to share my opinions so here goes...

I found all the points of view in this thread very interesting and I think it says something about our human condition. On this subject, each of us chooses to believe that which comforts us… helps relieve the intrinsic anxiety of being human and knowing we will cease to exist in this reality someday.

Some believe that there is a place they will go after they die… a continuation of spirit if you will. This comforts them. Others may say when you’re dead, you’re dead and that’s it. That can be comforting just because it puts us all in the same boat, and that’s fair enough. I chose to believe that there is a continuation of spirit… somehow… not because of any book or specific school of thought but simply because it comforts me and alleviates the fear of the unknown to some degree. (If I’m wrong and there is no “afterlife” I’ll never no it it because… well I’ll be dead)
We each choose what to believe for our own reasons.

More to the point of the thread… I believe in evolution… cosmic rays tweaking the myriad species… but have always had a question. Humans have evolved a larger brain than most because of the cosmic tweak of babies being born with soft and undeveloped skulls to allow the brain to grow. If natural selection is about survival of the fittest how is a soft skulled baby, who will be unable to protect itself for years to come, an example of that? A human baby requires much family and community support to survive, moreso back in the days when this evolutionary change was happening. How did enough of them survive, back in a very hostile environment to propagate and become the dominant homo sapiens?

Why in fact did life on this planet develop beyond one stage organisms? Nature seems to be about building larger complex organisms out of smaller individual ones. That is why we humans consider ourselves to be the culmination of this process. But in fact humanity, human society... is the current end product. I believe there is some agency behind this whether you chose to call it God, Gaia, Mother Nature or the Cosmos in general that wanted or needed a species that could adapt to most any environment and in fact CHANGE it’s own environment, for better or worse.

Unfortunately we behave like a massive organism, with 7 billion brains trying to control it.... and it shows today.

 

[JCUK]

“… Science is constantly proved all the time. You see, if we take something like any fiction, any holy book… and destroyed it, in a thousand years’ time, that wouldn’t come back just as it was. Whereas if we took every science book, and every fact, and destroyed them all, in a thousand years they’d all be back, because all the same tests would [produce] the same result.” [Ricky Gervais]

The existence of God is not subjective. He either exists or he doesn’t. It’s not a matter of opinion. You can have your own opinions. But you can’t have your own facts. [Ricky Gervais]

Opinions don't affect facts. But facts should affect opinions, and do, if you're rational. [Ricky Gervais]