The inevitable evolution debate thread

[WidowMakers]

lol. There is a difference between not understanding the CONCEPT of evolution and not believing that it is a reality.
I understand the concept I just don't believe it is how we got here.

But if you wish, start another thread and we can chat about it.

 

[ORBOTRON]

As WM suggests, this is certainly a topic deserving of it's own thread, so that's where we'll go with it.

Please take note, I'm fully aware that discussions like this are a powder keg, so any sparks will not be tolerated, much less flames.

Whether you're an atheist, Christian, agnostic, pagan, random cult member, whatever, you're allowed to have your opinions and express them for the most part. The only opinions to keep to yourself are ones such as "you are an idiot for believing what you believe" or "God is going to kick your ass for being a filthy heathen".

 

[Cardinalsrule]

Well, having taken college courses in Invertrbrate Paleontology, Invertebrate Paleontology, and BioGeography, I believe that I have a good understanding of the theory and fact of evolution. For those who desire to read or learn more, I would refer you to the works of the late great Stephen Jay Gould, most particularly "Evolution as Fact and Theory". http://www.stephenjaygould.org/library/gould_fact-and-theory.html

And while I don't want to defy Orbo's admonishments against inflammatory statements....... Than don't, lol ....and will not make such statements to any individual...... any derogatory statement made about a group of people is obviously going to apply to every individual in that group


Off to a shaky start right out of the gate, but I think we can save it, lol
-ORBOTRON

 

[WidowMakers]

Well, having taken college courses in Invertrbrate Paleontology, Vertebrate Paleontology, and BioGeography, I believe that I have a good understanding of the theory and fact of evolution. For those who desire to read or learn more, I would refer you to the works of the late great Stephen Jay Gould, most particularly "Evolution as Fact and Theory". http://www.stephenjaygould.org/library/gould_fact-and-theory.html

Thanks for the link Card. I will read that and reply later.


Apparently you and I disagree on what a FACT actually is then.

More to come. One thing I would like to do and have never gotten anyone to agree to do in other threads/discussions, is setup a list of words and their definitions. That way when one person says, creation/evolution/materialistic/natural selection/etc, we all have a base to understand what a person means.

Too many of these turn into people saying different things with the same words and it gets confusing. ESPECIALLY on the internet. lol

 

[32knots]

Fact: a truth known by actual experience or observation. "Evolutionists have been careful to distinguish between fact and theory from the beginning," Before I put in my two cents, WidowMakers what exactly are your definitions used when you define your own beliefs to describe or explain "how we got here,"

Personally, as a scientist my self I find the information gathered by experience and observation of others (FACTS) to point toward evolution as the most probably explanation until proven otherwise.

Creationism does not and will never exist in reality if it is defined as: the doctrine that matter and all things were created, substantially as they now exist, by an omnipotent Creator.

 

[Cardinalsrule]

It's patently obvious, at least to me, that due to my strong feelings on the subject, if I continue to post on this thread, I will inevitably be bitch-slapped by our esteemed moderator, so since I came here to play games and not to beat my head against this particular brick wall, I will take my leave.......

 

[Badorties]

The test of a first rate intelligence is the ability to hold two opposed ideas in the mind at the same time, and still retain the ability to function.

The above quote would lead me to believe that WidowMakers is a genius! Really though, I can only imagine the cerebral dichotomy that goes on among the people who subscribe to both faith and logic.

 

[ORBOTRON]

It's patently obvious, at least to me, that due to my strong feelings on the subject, if I continue to post on this thread, I will inevitably be bitch-slapped by our esteemed moderator, so since I came here to play games and not to beat my head against this particular brick wall, I will take my leave.......

That is certainly your prerogative. I appreciate you being honest and recognizing that the way you need to express yourself and the way I need to tame this discussion might not jive.

The brick wall analogy is a good one in this case as I doubt very many, if any people have been talked out of their beliefs on an internet forum, especially one having nothing to do with the topic.

 

[ORBOTRON]

The above quote would lead me to believe that WidowMakers is a genius! Really though, I can only imagine the cerebral dichotomy that goes on among the people who subscribe to both faith and logic.

It's really not that difficult once you come to the realization that logic (science specifically in this case) and faith are not opposing viewpoints.

 

[WidowMakers]

The above quote would lead me to believe that WidowMakers is a genius! Really though, I can only imagine the cerebral dichotomy that goes on among the people who subscribe to both faith and logic.

I guess it pains me to think that people view a person of faith as a person without logic.
My faith is not blind faith. I do not reject logic and common sense.
I do not believe in God just because the Bible says so.

I believe in God because I feel that reality is best explained by a timeless personal creator rather than a mass of mindless eternal random matter.
I use my reason, logic, science, etc to come to this conclusion, NOT blind faith in a book.

 

[WidowMakers]

It's patently obvious, at least to me, that due to my strong feelings on the subject, if I continue to post on this thread, I will inevitably be bitch-slapped by our esteemed moderator, so since I came here to play games and not to beat my head against this particular brick wall, I will take my leave.......

Hey Card, don't leave on my account. You can think I am stupid and ignorant of the facts and that is OK. We are all entitled to our own opinions. We may disagree and might not ever change each others mind. The only reason I am even discussing this is that it was brought up how republicans don't understand evolution thus asserting evolution is true. I am just wanting a discussion on the topic.

Also when I talk to people about evolution they tend to not wish to talk about anything but the biological "FACTS".
They don't want to talk about:

-The universe (where did it come from)
-The mind (where did it come from, does it exist)
-Information (where did it come from)
-Right and Wrong (are the relative? do they exist)
-Materialism (is matter all there is)
-Simple to complex through randomness (how is this possible)​

These are a few HUGE items that biological MACRO evolution cannot begin to discuss but they are all important.
So while Macro evolution may have quite a few really good cases for proff or fact (I have been presented with those over the years), the full package required to be sported along with Macro evolution in my opinion is lacking credibility and reason.

So for all of the atheist, materialistic evolutionist out there, I don't think that when looking at all the data, circumstances, ways the world works, ways people interact and relate, how things function can be explained better with evolution than with creationism.

 

[Badorties]

I guess it pains me to think that people view a person of faith as a person without logic.
My faith is not blind faith. I do not reject logic and common sense.
I do not believe in God just because the Bible says so.

I believe in God because I feel that reality is best explained by a timeless personal creator rather than a mass of mindless eternal random matter.
I use my reason, logic, science, etc to come to this conclusion, NOT blind faith in a book.

I generally think faith is of the most useful when used personally and internally. Which is also where logic is least useful or applicable. Faith used externally, to explain the unexplainable, was certainly useful when such faiths were created, a few millenniums ago, and for most of human history. However the unexplainable has become quite explainable with greater accuracy. As such, faith used externally, seems to me to be quite at odds with logic and reason.

Wids, your view of your faith is much more "evolved" than almost anyone I've met. For you at least, faith and logic do not seem to compete for brain cells. However for many others, they are just perverting faith or logic and usually both to make it "right" in their heads.

 

[Cardinalsrule]

I didn't post that on your account, Wids. I don't think you stupid, it's obvious to even the most casual of observers that you are not. You are perfectly entitled to your opinions, same as I.

Your post #12 reveals much detailed thought on the issue.

Let me leave (again, faux leave taking RULES, lol) you with this thought.

Assuming the existence of an omnipotent being who created the Universe and , of course, the Earth.
The Bible says that he created it all in 6 days. BUT, who are we, puny humans, to say what is a "day" to this omnipotent God? Could it not be millions of years? And who is to say the mechanism that God used to create the wondrous variety of creatures on Earth? Could this mechanism not have been Evolution? What I'm saying here is, belief in God and belief in Evolution are not necessarily mutually exclusive.

 

[Badorties]

Or maybe god can compress several billion years into a single 24 hour period.

 

[ORBOTRON]

Genesis pretty clearly defines a day as being the same as what we know as a 24 hour day. The trouble with quoting scripture is that if you don't believe it's the inspired word of God, you can construe small parts of it to mean virtually anything while ignoring context.

 

[Restrepo]

STOP debating this it's freakin' rediculus, one side is not going to convince the other anything it will only pull this community apart, just respect one & others individuality and be happy that this world WAS created and NOT that it was created your way.

In due time we are probably going to find out how we got here and I bet it's not going to be what people expexted at all.

 

[mapguy]

I am of the same mind as Rest on this one. Please burn and then bury this thread. Experience has shown me that nothing good can come from it, and only hatred and disdain will ensue.

 

[WidowMakers]

I am of the same mind as Rest on this one. Please burn and then bury this thread. Experience has shown me that nothing good can come from it, and only hatred and disdain will ensue.

STOP debating this it's freakin' rediculus, one side is not going to convince the other anything it will only pull this community apart, just respect one & others individuality and be happy that this world WAS created and NOT that it was created your way.
In due time we are probably going to find out how we got here and I bet it's not going to be what people expexted at all.

Restrepo and mapguy.

I understand where you are coming from, I have too seen many of these types of threads pop up and turn into a rancid mess of mean spirited speak and anger. I have no intention of trying to pull this community apart. If a person wishes to engage in a discussion on a topic, and they can present their views in a manner that is kind and respectful of others, then there is no reason NOT to have a discussion. I do respect others and I know others respect me. I have had talks about this in various degrees with several of the other people on staff here. I can tell you that we don't agree. But that has not made it hard or difficult for all of us to work together and get along.

Now onto you other statement "...this world WAS created.."
That is what people disagree on. I do believe the universe and all that is in it was created. Other think it came into being with no intelligence and thus would say it was NOT created but just happened.
So there is a difference in opinions and perspectives about the origins of the universe and thus room for discussion about the topic.

And secondly this statement. "In due time we are probably going to find out how we got here and I bet it's not going to be what people expected at all."
This REALLY the reason to have this discussion. Why should we all wait to find out what could happen or might happen? Why not try to understand, based on what we see now and how things work, what is the most likely cause for everything.
When you say in due time we will find out how we got here, we need to talk and discuss the different perspectives to get to that point.
If no one ever talks about this, then we will not eventually in the future all agree.
We NEED these discussions to furthur inspect and probe the possibilities.

And to say that it is not going to be what we expected already assumes that all ideas that have been presented are wrong.
Why would you bet all current ideas of origin are wrong and the correct one will be found in due time?

And lastly, from my perspective, what the true nature of reality is, is greatly important not only to our future but to our present.

A) If there is a God then the existence of God and who God is and how He relates to us is SUPER important.
B) If there is no god then the belief in a god means nothing.​

If A is correct, then people should desire to understand whatever they can in regards to this God and what /how / why he has done what he has done.
What purpose did God have for you and me.
What does he want from me? Who is he and why did he make us.

If B is correct, then everything happened from random chance and we are no more important (universally) than a rock.
There is no goal. There are no universal moral standards, etc (I am sure we might get into a few of these topics later)

Two people cannot hold opposing views on an issue with only 1 correct answer.

I think that warrants a discussion at least a bit.

EDIT: and I have a response to your post too card. jsut not done yet.

 

[ORBOTRON]

I am of the same mind as Rest on this one. Please burn and then bury this thread. Experience has shown me that nothing good can come from it, and only hatred and disdain will ensue.

Yes, but your experience didn't include MC, where my micro-managing moderation tactics keep things civil

As you can probably tell, I'm treating this thread a bit differently than the rest. Any hint of animosity or even overt disrespect will be acted on swiftly.

I totally understand where you guys are coming from being hesitant to tackle this discussion, and that's fine, nobody HAS to voice their opinion. However, I would like to give those that WOULD like to partake, the chance to do so in a respectful, thoughtful, mature fashion.

I guarantee you will not see the childish flaming that so often accompanies this discussion. If you do, it's only because I haven't logged on recently.

 

[mapguy]

You Kewl Orbo. But the thing with me is, I am very hesitant to speak up in threads of Religion and Politics. ...and so, while I do have much to say on both of these issues, maybe I should just stay out of the water on this one. You see it is one of my beliefs, that some of the things that people believe in,.........deleted.....


Indeed, maybe it's best you sit this one out Map, lol

--ORBOTRON