Rome: Names

[linkinpark]

-The 'Papal States' haven't existed during the Roman Empire, so the name doesn't make sense.
-Why would you say Roma instead of Rome but still use Athens instead of Athenae and Carthage instead of Carthago and so on?
-Sicily was misspelled as Scicily on the map
-Cyrenaica was misspelled as Cyrenacia
-Carthaginensis was misspelled as Carthagenesis
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hispania_Carthaginensis
-Lugdunensis was misspelled as Lugdunesis
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gallia_Lugdunensis
-Caesariensis was misspelled as Cesaerinensis
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mauretania_Caesariensis

Edit: same for Narbonensis / Narbonesis.

Also, on the Balkans map, Gagauzia's reserve card is still misspelled as Gagauizia.

 

[linkinpark]

Unfortunataly no one responded so I'd like to hightlight my post again and add to it that Gallia Cisalpina (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cisalpine_Gaul) would be a much better name for Liguria (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Liguria) which is in fact only the Italian coast next to France.

 

[Shepherd]

if the will exists to make these changes, I'll oblige. The original mapmaker needs to be on board.

 

[Cagey]

OK, sorry been late to respond but, you know, it's all ancient history to me now...

so - Papal States because I din't know what else to call that region, on all the maps I looked it it was just all Italy and Italia was already used for the command. Maybe We could change it to Terra Noster (Our Land in Latin I think) how about that?

Athenae, yes, makes sense, but I think we should stick with Carthage.

Sicily, yeah, sure, whatever

I'll bow to your research on :

-Cyrenaica was misspelled as Cyrenacia
-Lugdunensis was misspelled as Lugdunesis
-Caesariensis was misspelled as Cesaerinensis
-Narbonensis / Narbonesis.

But I want to keep Cathagenesis because it's just so much cooler. And because it will niggle you.

I did consider Gallia Cisalpine but reasoned that since there was a command called Gallia just next door best to avoid any possible confusion.

 

[linkinpark]

OK, sorry been late to respond but, you know, it's all ancient history to me now...
But I want to keep Cathagenesis because it's just so much cooler. And because it will niggle you.

On Gallia Cisapline, your arguments seem reasonable, I guess it's not necessary to find a new name for that.

Central Italy could be described as Etruria (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Etruria). I wouldn't go with Terra Nostra (yeah, I can decline Latin :tongue because it resembles the Holy Land which would be Palestine.

Oh wait I also just figured out why Caligae has it's name :lol: Who has come up with this?

Also, I just found out Durocorturom should be Durocortorum (https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/4/4e/Roman_Empire_125_political_map.png)

Edit: Wait, here's another one: Bithynia instead of Bithinia or Bithnia (which is the way the reserve card is spelled currently).

 

[Sebrim]

Oh wait I also just figured out why Caligae has it's name :lol: Who has come up with this?

Caligae seems to be Cagey's own invention (see here) What is it that is so interesting about that name?

 

[Cagey]

OK, Eturia I can go with, makes sense. Caligae was my invention.

Look, I'm not really sure that spelling was that standardized in ancient times Certainly in the medieval era spelling was more a matter of choice and conjecture, including people and place names. I've seen London spelt Lundene, Londone, Lundun, Lonedon etc. on old maps and documents - and the point is that none of them are/were wrong. I grew up learning about Boadacea - now, apparently she's called Boudicca *shrug* you pays your penny you makes your choice... So what I'm saying is that just because some recent historians have decided that this is the way something should be spelt doesn't make it gospel.

 

[linkinpark]

OK, Eturia I can go with, makes sense. Caligae was my invention.

Look, I'm not really sure that spelling was that standardized in ancient times Certainly in the medieval era spelling was more a matter of choice and conjecture, including people and place names. I've seen London spelt Lundene, Londone, Lundun, Lonedon etc. on old maps and documents - and the point is that none of them are/were wrong. I grew up learning about Boadacea - now, apparently she's called Boudicca *shrug* you pays your penny you makes your choice... So what I'm saying is that just because some recent historians have decided that this is the way something should be spelt doesn't make it gospel.

For most languages that would be true, especially Germanic. But the Latin we learn has been a written language for much longer and it was much more standardized. When you find different spellings this is because of the use of colloquial Latin, like ORSOM instead of URSUM although everyone would agree that Ursum would be correct because it was usually spelled like that.

Maybe some names can be written differently, but I doubt your spellings are based on differently spelling sources. For example Cesaerinensis isn't possible because it descends from Caesar, or Bithynia which is the modern day transcription for Βιθυνία.

So where do I wanna go? I'm not sure why you did that last post about spelling so I just wanna make sure the names are spelled as most people would do in case that was meant to defend some of the spellings.

@Sebrim
Just google Caligae You'll see why.

 

[Cagey]

I'm sorry, I'm just a bit over this map now - two, three months ago I was obsessed and your efforts would've been a godsend but it's all 2013 for me. However you're right, we should get it tidied up and finalised, so why don't you put together a comprehensive list of all the changes you'd like to see, I'll cross out those I don't like (not many, I shouldn't think), we pass the (modified) list to Shepherd and Bob's your uncle.

Forget what I wrote about spelling, I just followed an idea down a rabbit hole, ended up babbling. But anyway, yeah I'm sure the Romans standardized their spelling, they had a big bureaucracy didn't they? Must've to be able to run the empire.

 

[linkinpark]

Alright, so here is the list:
Typos
* Scicily->Sicily/Sicilia (thanks to Sebrim)
* Cyrenacia->Cyrenaica
* Carthagenesis->Carthaginensis
* Lugdunesis->Lugdunensis
* Cesaerinensis->Caesariensis
* Narbonesis->Narbonensis
* Durucorturom->Durucortorum
* Bithinia/Bithnia(card)->Bithynia

Other proposals
* Papal States->Etruria (reason: doesn't fit the time of the map)

Maybe all names in Latin or English, where possible. Bold names denote currently used spellings-
(English/Latin):
Rome/Roma
Athens/Athenae
Carthage/Carthago
Sicily/Sicilia
Lyon/Lugdunum
Cagliari/Caralis
Córdoba/Corduba
Palestine/Iudaea (also, I doubt, Palestine was used as a name back then)
Nusaybin/Nisibis
Constantinople, Istanbul/Constantinopolis
Reims/Durocortorum
London/Londinium
Crete/Creta
Thrace/Thracia
Upper Pannonia/Pannonia Superior
Lower Pannonia/Pannonia Inferior
Lower Kingdom/Regnum Inferior
Upper Kingdom/Regnum Superior
Balearic Isles/Insulae Baleares
Upper Moesia/Moesia Superior
Lower Moesia/Moesia Inferior
Belgium/Belgica
Upper Germany/Germania Superior
Lower Germany/Germania Inferior
Upper Britain/Britannia Superior
Lower Britain/Britannia Inferior

plus the commands:
Britain/Britannia
Germany/Germania
Gaul/Gallia
Italy/Italia
Greece/Graecia
Orient/Oriens
Egypt/Aegyptus
Western Isles/Insulae occidentales

I would prefer to have everything in Latin just for style like in the Antiquus map.

That should be everything.

 

[Sebrim]

* Scicily->Silcily/Sicilia

Would you please correct this first one before the list gets official?

 

[Cagey]

OK, I'm working on your list and I can dig where you're coming from - obviously you've put a deal of thought and effort into this for which I thank you - you'd like it to be as consistent and as accurate as possible, commendable goals I agree, however I take the view that a deuce of gameplay trumps an ace of historical accuracy every time, and also take into consideration the impression I'd like the average player new to the board to receive. I want them to be comfortable with it and have a few points of familiarity and be able to make a few connections. There's an element of catering to the masses.

Anyway to the list -

Typos
* Scicily->Sicilia
* Cyrenacia->Cyrenaica
* Carthagenesis->Carthaginensis
* Lugdunesis->Lugdunensis
* Cesaerinensis->Caesariensis
* Narbonesis->Narbonensis
* Durucorturom->Durucortorum
* Bithinia/Bithnia(card)->Bithynia

Greenlight all the typos (including Carthagensis)

* Papal States->Etruria
* Athens->Athenae
* Greece->Graecia
* Thrace->Thracia
* Constantinople->Constantinopolis
* Balearic Isles->Insulae Baleares

Greenlight the above changes

Nusaybin/Nisibis - Shepherd supplied this city, if he's ok with the change then I am, means nothing to me either way.

Palestine/Iudaea (also, I doubt, Palestine was used as a name back then) point taken but I think it would be better if we went with Judea which would mean something to most people whereas Iudaea wouldn't

Carthage/Carthago - I want to stick with Carthage for pretty much the same reason

Upper Pannonia/Pannonia Superior
Lower Pannonia/Pannonia Inferior
Lower Kingdom/Regnum Inferior
Upper Kingdom/Regnum Superior
Upper Moesia/Moesia Superior
Lower Moesia/Moesia Inferior - I want to stick with the uppers and lowers. I specifically want to keep Upper and Lower Kingdom because of the connection people will make with Egypt, and in the north I want a little diversification to aid instant location, 4 uppers and lowers, or 4 inferiors and superiors is too much, 2 of each is better, IMO

Orient/Oriens
Western Isles/Insulae occidentales - I came up with both these command names and I think they're simple and uncomplicated and make no demands upon the player, which their alternatives would.

 

[SimonDeDanser]

Maybe a little late but, if you don't want too many superior/inferior: consider Prima and Secunda. In the case of britannia it even has some historical reality as in times britain was divided in 4 provinces of which two of them were 'Briannia prima' and 'Britannia secunda'. Same goes for Pannonia prima/secunda and Moesia prima/secunda

 

[linkinpark]

Well, my point was just that it makes no sense to have Rome in Latin but Athens and Carthage in English.

But actually I was just analyzing the names and that's what sticked out to me (especially since in German you would say Karthago, which resembles the Latin version). My main point were just the typos of which I thought they really should be removed. So if you think Carthage would add up to the "familiarity", that'd be ok for me.

For Nisibis, I think we could keep the name.

For Judaea, it doesn't matter since J and I were originally just two graphic variants of the same letter so it can't be argued that I would be the correct letter.

Considering Simon's post, I think we should use historical names wherever possible before making up names. Actually I found a map where, for Pannonia and Moesia, superior and inferior were used so it wouldn't make sense to use the name Germania inferior but not Moesia inferior.

http://www.globalsecurity.org/military/world/spqr/images/spqr-map-117.jpg

Indeed, Britannia prima and Britannia secunda existed (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Britannia_Secunda), so if that would be an alternative if, as Simon said, you think there'd be too many superior and inferior.

 

[SimonDeDanser]

I did not make these names up. Diocletian did (or at least his subordinates i guess), according to the 'Notitia Dignitatium' ; or in my case: Wikipedia :fisheye: )

The english Latin 'mix and match' isn't the only confusing thing to me. Some of these terts are actual administrative historical subdivions (not all from the same period of time), and some are not. Some of them are just fantasy, or the name of one of the tribes living there and i presume taken over from a map of a roman period not meant to denote an actual administrative subdivision or anything like that. For example Siluria which wasn't a name of a 'roman administrative division' (as far as i know) but one of the tribes living there, unlike Galiae Belgica, which was an actual name of a province at some point, originating from the name romans gave to a group of tribes they fought there and eventually conquered and incorparated in their empire (Belgae). It did not happen in the case of the Silures and I believe that region was never called Siluria by the romans

The Diocletian subdivisions on this list may be a help if you want to make names more historically congruent.

You will see that \ Palestine (Palaestina) actually was used by romans in Latin aswel as Moesia Prima/secunda
Upper and Lower Kingdom could be named as Aegyptus and Thebais?

I guess it is way to late to do anything about it, but i still like to say that the command subdivision is maybe a little bit more contemporary than Classical..... I don't now if this is shared by other players but it depreciates the map a little for me. …. I was Just wandering what it is about this map?, because at the moment it does not seem a very popular yet.


Just my belated 2 cents...

 

[linkinpark]

Sorry if it sounded like I thought you had made up these names. Actually I agree with everything you just said.

So, Cagey, is there a chance to take in Simon's thoughts or is it too late? If not, I suggest, you, Simon, could make a list too.

 

[Cagey]

Take a step back guys - this is a game, not a history lesson. There's no attempt to educate here and the only obligation to be historically accurate we're under is the same as Hollywood has which is zip. If it entertains go with it, if you don't like the real thing make something up, change the ending, whatever it takes to make it work and make it fun. You wouldn't take your geography from a classic board, so, you know, don't take your history from this one.

Now the map works fine for me, in fact it's one of my favourites so I'm loathe to tinker too much but OK, you put a lot of work and thought into this linkin and make some good arguments so I'm going to go with the list green-lit in my last post plus Palestine to Judea and call it a wrap. That's the list I'm going to pass to Shepherd and I'll veto any other future or current changes or suggestions. That's it, I'm done, it's got my name on it and I'm happy with it, so, you know, if you don't like it make a better one and I'll be pleased to play on it.

Simon, you're just too late for the party.

 

[linkinpark]

Well, I like the map for the gameplay, I just thought it was better for MajCom's reputation if names are given accurately but you know if this is the limit for you, then go with it, I'm happy with the changes you approved, the rest shouldn't be that disturbing.

So for me the discussion is over too. Thanks for the time you all spent to make the map better and see you on the battlefield!

 

[SimonDeDanser]

I understand there is a difference of 'being fashionably late' and 'too late at the party'. I did not want to offend your work. Just tried to chip in a little as you were making changes at the time. Don't get me wrong: I like the map. Thank you for making it... I'll Just have to learn to leave well enough alone... I'm no Hollywood hater, so even though there is no historical evidence it was ever said in the arena but thanks to hollywood i can say and be understood when I say: Those who are about to die greet you...... and quietly go back to drinking on my own between the very pleasurable remains of the party.

 

[Shepherd]

hey all, thanks for the work done here. When I have a couple of hours to devote to this I'll get the change up.