Diplomacy Debate

[coolname]

If I were you, I would still honor the treaty, but only because hstimer had regained the territ before my turn came around. ...but that is just me.

Yes, I see your point (very honorable! [but it might be a strategic disadvantage]). I did attack, though, even risking the diplomatic breach.

For me, diplomatic treaties are not carved in stone, but I do intend to keep >95-99% of them. But in this specific case, the circumstances were thus that I might have broken the treaty even if it was a sure breach.

 

[mapguy]

When you are contemplating "strategic advantages and disadvantages", Do not forget to consider the "long term" ramifications. If you should break a truce, you not only piss off the guy with which you had the truce, but also the other players in the game will take note of your treachery. 95%-99% is (imho), NOT at all a good record, and is NOT what I shoot for. Anything less than 100% is a big fat no-no in my book.

Once you obtain a reputation for violating truces you will be targeted in future games. In the long run it will be a disadvantage to you and your score.

 

[coolname]

When you are contemplating "strategic advantages and disadvantages", Do not forget to consider the "long term" ramifications. If you should break a truce, you not only piss off the guy with which you had the truce, but also the other players in the game will take note of your treachery. 95%-99% is (imho), NOT at all a good record, and is NOT what I shoot for. Anything less than 100% is a big fat no-no in my book.

Once you obtain a reputation for violating truces you will be targeted in future games. In the long run it will be a disadvantage to you and your score.

You are absolutely right that trutworthiness is an important asset. I still cherish my pristine rating "Diplomacy: 1000(0)". However, even notorious treaty-breakers do not suffer a big penalty in regular gameplay, is my experience. Also because in most games, diplomacy is not used/is not an issue.

I'd estimate in 80%+ games there are no diplomatic treaties being made. Perhaps Bado/Evan or someone else from MajCom HQ can give us this stat; in what percentage of (casual, 24h) games hasat least one diplomatic treaty been made?

 

[mapguy]

You are absolutely right that trutworthiness is an important asset. I still cherish my pristine rating "Diplomacy: 1000(0)". However, even notorious treaty-breakers do not suffer a big penalty in regular gameplay, is my experience. Also because in most games, diplomacy is not used/is not an issue.

I'd estimate in 80%+ games there are no diplomatic treaties being made. Perhaps Bado/Evan or someone else from MajCom HQ can give us this stat; in what percentage of (casual, 24h) games hasat least one diplomatic treaty been made?

It is my understanding that lower dip. scores revert back to 1000 over time, (a mistake in my view). I am the type that never forgets a treaty violator, and do indeed use this info in subsequent games. That guy will always be on the top of my list for attacks, and when it looks like I am on the outs, I may decide to just suicide on him or her. This will come with no warning or explanation.

As to the percent of games with diplomacy, well I guess it depends on who you play. Some players furiously use dip. in every game they play. Others like me, ...not so much.

 

[coolname]

It is my understanding that lower dip. scores revert back to 1000 over time, (a mistake in my view). I am the type that never forgets a treaty violator, and do indeed use this info in subsequent games. That guy will always be on the top of my list for attacks, and when it looks like I am on the outs, I may decide to just suicide on him or her. This will come with no warning or explanation.

Yes, every diplomacy breach will set your score back 30 points. You regain a point per day, so after a month you're back at 1000. However, the number in brackets behind 1000 is the total number (all time, cumulative) of broken truces. So you can be like you; 1000(0) or you can be at 1000 with a history (say 1000(3); back at 1000 but with 3 historic breaches).

So in your (mapguy's) case you can focus on the number between parentheses in the diplomacy score, that tells you all you need to know about your opponents character.

Out of curiosity: mapguy, do you actually check the diplomacy score when faced with a choice whom to suicide on? Even in non-diplomacy games? (you'd have to look it up at someones personal profile page). I think that is interesting and it is good for the impact of diplomacy score on game play. Personally, I go with the strategy that gives me the best chance, even it is a-million-to-one shot vs a-million-to-two shot.

 

[mapguy]

the number in brackets behind 1000 is the total number (all time, cumulative) of broken truces.

Ahha, learn something new every day.

do you actually check the diplomacy score when faced with a choice whom to suicide on?

I do not look at players dip scores, as I have on a couple of occasions been advised by the game that I was breaking a truce, when it was erroneous. So that statistic does not play a role. I do remember, and do hold grudges against anyone that violates a truce, especially if it is with me. At the present I have only one grudge that comes to mind. It is against a player that I believe may be one of ZSP's multies.

Personally, I go with the strategy that gives me the best chance, even it is a-million-to-one shot vs a-million-to-two shot.

There are many instances where violating a truce can give you a win, but so can loaded dice in a crap game. Both are cheating in my book, and like all ill-gotten gains, will eventually come around to bite you, ...in the end.

 

[coolname]

It is against a player that I believe may be one of ZSP's multies.

So that is whu zsp is no longer active?

There are many instances where violating a truce can give you a win, but so can loaded dice in a crap game. Both are cheating in my book, and like all ill-gotten gains, will eventually come around to bite you, ...in the end.

My 1:million vs 2: million was regarding whom/where to kamikaze/suicide on.

But it is an interesting moral point. I think breaking truces is within the rules, every player has to make a cost-benefit analysis for themselves (also factoring in longer term consequences). I'm of a more opportunistic nature; if all other players at MajCom shared your (mapguy's) norms, I would never break a treaty because the long term ramifications would be too severe.

 

[mapguy]

So that is whu zsp is no longer active?



My 1:million vs 2: million was regarding whom/where to kamikaze/suicide on.

But it is an interesting moral point. I think breaking truces is within the rules, every player has to make a cost-benefit analysis for themselves (also factoring in longer term consequences). I'm of a more opportunistic nature; if all other players at MajCom shared your (mapguy's) norms, I would never break a treaty because the long term ramifications would be too severe.

I think that more players than you suspect DO indeed. let their feelings from past games, effect their decisions in subsequent games. It seems only natural if you ask me. This aspect of the game is alluding you I think. Or, you may just not realize on a conscious level, that you yourself are effected by friendships, and grudges.

 

[Thunderous]

It is against a player that I believe may be one of ZSP's multies.

So that is whu zsp is no longer active?

No, i dont think ZSP had any multi's, the reason for his banning was for collusion im pretty sure.

 

[mapguy]

No, i dont think ZSP had any multi's, the reason for his banning was for collusion im pretty sure.

Yes, I know this is true, but most cheaters are not that smart when it comes down to it. I would expect that when a cheater is busted, he will look for another way back into the site. I would expect that he would make an account under a different name, and use the same winning strategies that he profited from before. If this indeed were the case, we would also see a person come from out of nowhere, to rocket into the top ten or higher. That person would have the same kind of likes and dislikes, when it comes to type of games that they play, etc.

If you have been paying attention, you would have seen just such an occurrence right after zsp was busted. Not really enough for any formal accusation or anything. ...Just an observation, and heads up.

 

[Robinette]

If this indeed were the case, we would also see a person come from out of nowhere, to rocket into the top ten or higher.

If you have been paying attention, you would have seen just such an occurrence right after zsp was busted. Not really enough for any formal accusation or anything. ...Just an observation, and heads up.

AAfitz???





:hahaha:
KIDDING!!!!

 

[AAFitz]

I saw that.

 

[ORBOTRON]

Broke this discussion off from the suggestion thread. When it comes to possible cheating, multis, etc. the Private Support forum is the appropriate place for that discussion.

 

[AAFitz]

I have to agree with that. This isnt the first public accusation, and one was against me, which honestly was fine, except that the accuser didnt even take the time to look into my games and even realize why my score was so high. It was just assumed that because I did well, I was cheating, and now apparently someone else is doing well, and that seems to warrant a another public cheating accusation.

Unfortunately some people will cheat, and I have certainly seen my share of cheaters on similar sites, and put countless hours into discussing it. Also, after being burned by players that I assumed were beyond reproach, I unfortunately consider very, very few beyond reproach, but that really does not justify accusations that are unfounded, because many do take cheating very seriously. Honestly, while cheating does ruin the game, it is really only a game, and if you really think about it, accusing another player's integrity when they have done nothing wrong, is probably much worse than circumventing a few rules on a game. Again, there will be cheaters. Many people just see it as an online game with no real concern in the real world, and simply dont see it as an infraction of any kind, but that still does not justify wild blanket accusations against players, simply because they do well, unless some pretty thorough research and evidence is there to back it up. And even then, a private accusation and discussion is warranted, because, many will take the accusation personally, and the ones who are affected the most, are the ones that value their integrity the most.

This is just something to think about before assuming someone is cheating or breaking the rules, and certainly before posting about it. More importantly, dont just jump to conclusions without researching the actual data, because otherwise, its possible to assume everyone is cheating, if you don't look at the whole picture. Also, by making unfounded accusations, it makes it much more difficult to find the actual cheaters, which is the ultimate goal in the first place. Its very easy to go on a crusade against cheaters, and very easy to jump to the conclusion, and see cheating everywhere from everyone, but it will most certainly not make your gaming, or those around you fun. Besides, the cheaters really dont get anything except a few points, and it costs them a piece of their soul every time they do it, so I simply suggest to all that they dont go crazy looking for cheaters everywhere, because you will absolutely find them everywhere, but you most certainly will not be right every time, and could very easily ruin the game for more people than most cheaters could ever hope to.

I have seen this happen countless times, and with people Ive known for years, and have certainly had to check my own suspicions at times as well. Its an easy trap to fall into. Enjoy the game, and do not get sucked into paranoia, in the end, it will not be worth your time or energy, or honestly, help anyone at all.

 

[commandorsam]

im with u map guy.i learned in risk if u hold gruges the revenge is sweet and i scares people

 

[mapguy]

@ fitzy,
A lot of what you say is right on, but some of your conclusions are a bit off. First off, and most important, is that I expressively stated that I was NOT formally accusing anyone of cheating. So, that pretty much answers most of your last post. Also, I never accused you of cheating friend. I only pointed out an anomaly, and speculated as to how it could be. It was a search for your secret. For someone who states that this is only a game, you sure can be touchy. lol.

Second, the topic was about honor, and the obverse naturally entered the discussion. IMHO, those that break truces ARE cheaters plain and simple. Cheaters do not stop there, (at least the most prolific ones don't). They scramble to search for any, and all ways, to cheat their way to the top.

For those honorable players that have the desire to make it to the top, they are forced to become a bit wary. People like zsp are indeed abound on these game sites. They ruin the experience for the rest of us. Yes, it is true that NOT everyone is a cheater, but that is not to say that we should not look for the tale-tale signs that cheaters invariable leave. I am only pointing out the bread crumbs on the ground. It is up to you if you want to do the tracking or not.

So, if zsp were to act like most cheaters, he would want to cheat his way back in. I was only pointing out a few things to look for. As smart as some cheaters may seem, when it really comes down to it. they are really quite dumb.

 

[AAFitz]

You can translate "Did Fitz also profit from some of his partner (zsp's) transgressions ? Were the bulk of his games "joined" or "started". My contention here is that the big gap has some other explanation other than him being good at specialization. " as not being an accusation of any kind, but most did not. Either way, I dont even care. I knew the risk I was running by gaining rank which is one of the many reasons why I never put everything into getting a high score. My point is, that others will take offense to it, and really if they have done nothing wrong, most certainly do not deserve it.

In any case, I am simply pointing out what I have learned after being a very active member in a cheating forum on another site. Learn from it or do not, but I do hope some learn from it, because there are some hard learned lessons based on years of experience and countless hours.

As far as all cheaters being stupid, well, unfortunately, the best cheaters, are very much not stupid, and never get caught until they want to get caught. They are certainly wasting some time, and as I suggested, risking losing a piece of their soul with each infraction, but stupid, many are not.

I know if I really wanted to, I could handle a few multis, if I really thought it would be fun to get away with it. If my objective was to set up several different players, all with different personalities, I could very much do it, as long as I was disciplined. It would require a seperate computer for each, and never could they communicate. Some would be your best friend, and some would be your enemy. You would never know, or suspect the two could possibly be related. People have done this, for years and gotten away with it. Likely, some still are.

However, on a game like this, when you get to know people, they very much start to get to know you, and trust you, and as in real life, I would never betray that trust. Almost nothing hurts more than when someone you really trust betrays you, and it is exponentially more painful the more you trust them. Robinette and I have had some friends through the years surprise us with a few multis, and She is among the group that I would guarantee would never cheat. I think if she did, I might actually shed a tear, and I know without a doubt, that if I ever cheated, she would absolutely shed a tear, which is why I and many would never cheat. The problem is, you never really know for sure which ones those are. As I said, many just see it as an online game with no real consequences, and while they are pretty much right on, some very much do make real friendships, and feel betrayed when those friends cheat. Granted, there are many degrees of cheating, and clearly it is the blatent cheating that offends the most, and Ive had some pretty good friends, give it a go. Some were more surprising than others, and in the end, you just have to come to piece with it. But as I said, most know the repercussions of cheating, which is why they never would, and why they take it so personally when you do accuse them, especially, with no real reason for doing so.

 

[mapguy]

You can translate "Did Fitz also profit from some of his partner (zsp's) transgressions ? Were the bulk of his games "joined" or "started". My contention here is that the big gap has some other explanation other than him being good at specialization. " as not being an accusation of any kind, but most did not. Either way, I dont even care. I knew the risk I was running by gaining rank which is one of the many reasons why I never put everything into getting a high score. My point is, that others will take offense to it, and really if they have done nothing wrong, most certainly do not deserve it.

In any case, I am simply pointing out what I have learned after being a very active member in a cheating forum on another site. Learn from it or do not, but I do hope some learn from it, because there are some hard learned lessons based on years of experience and countless hours.

Do you think that you are the only veteran Risk player here ?

Translation- I was pointing out that there existed a huge point gap. I was trying to find out the reason. I alluded to the fact that cheating could indeed be the reason, but did NOT come out and say that was my conclusion. The thread did exactly what I intended it to do. It found the reason, and I am happy to say that it was not a result of cheating.

 

[AAFitz]

Do you think that you are the only veteran Risk player here ?

Translation- I was pointing out that there existed a huge point gap. I was trying to find out the reason. I alluded to the fact that cheating could indeed be the reason, but did NOT come out and say that was my conclusion. The thread did exactly what I intended it to do. It found the reason, and I am happy to say that it was not a result of cheating.

Well, the thing is, a simple search of my games would have highlighted exactly how I gained those points, and posting your suspicion that there may be cheating, is very much an accusation of sorts, whatever conclusion you come to at the end of your investigation, query, or whatever you prefer to call it. In any case, like orbo said, such matters really should be made privately in the forum designed especially for that. I think it is one of the mistakes of the other sites when they allow it to be public, because while it does help find some cheaters, it most likely affects more rule abiding players more.

I obviously know I am not the only veteran Risk player here, and my advice is clearly only for those who have not learned the information I offer. Some of those are veterans as well I suspect. Either way, its just my thoughts on the subject, and as a veteran, I absolutely know not all have learned some of these lessons. In fact it is sometimes the veterans themselves that get consumed by cheating suspicions more than the rest, because they think they understand every part of the game, when in reality, no one does. Either way, I hope some get something out of it.

 

[Robinette]