Crusader states

[OneEyed]

Crusader states, updated

there are about 370 views of this thread, but only few replies. each new map idea and map itself needs any feedback from community. so it would be realy fine when you can post your ideas here, or just your opinion if you like or dislike map idea. the maps are made for you, you will play them, so more feedbacks from comunity can help to make maps better.

here is my new idea (and map). it is about Crusader states and surrounded Muslim states. as time period (medieval) also area (levant) have no presence on MajorCommand and I think it is also interesting theme.

with regions start as neutral.

updated version

and brief

here are two versions of brief, better said two versions of sea routes. I think now when Cyprus is added more to game from start, more sea routes are better, the game is more open.

starting positions: all castles, all christian cities and muslim cities start as neutral.

OneEyed

 

[LordAdef]

Beautiful!

 

[OneEyed]

Beautiful!

thank you.

I made some changes due gameplay. the river in Armenia is deleted, so there is better connection with Sultanate of Rum. also added mountains in Emirate of Damascus.

come on guys, 30 views and just one post... :hmmmm2:

OneEyed

 

[Dalinar]

I'm not sure if it'll work with the current code, but I like the map and partial auto-deploys a lot.

There's also a lot going on, so I have no idea if it's balanced - that'd take at least a half hour I'm not spending now. I also don't see some of the borders. Cyprus and Jerusalem seem to be missing at least two if I'm understanding the map.

 

[OneEyed]

I'm not sure if it'll work with the current code, but I like the map and partial auto-deploys a lot.

I am almost 100% sure that all bonuses are used on current maps.

There's also a lot going on, so I have no idea if it's balanced - that'd take at least a half hour I'm not spending now.

well, I am open to any notices about balancing and gameplay.

I also don't see some of the borders. Cyprus and Jerusalem seem to be missing at least two if I'm understanding the map.

there is no missing borders. there are three regions (Negev, Cyprus, County) which have two settlements (castle and christian city).

thanks for interest.

OneEyed

 

[Cardinalsrule]

This map looks like a lot of work has been done on it, including the brief. It is being used on another site? Did this come from Conk?

 

[NewSheriffInTown]

there is no missing borders. there are three regions (Negev, Cyprus, County) which have two settlements (castle and christian city).

So are you saying that is someone holds Negev, they get +2 bonus for the castle, AND +1 if they hold two other regions in that state? Like Galilee and Trans-Jordan? (Which also have castles)

So if someone has Negey, TransJordan, Galilee, and Akko, then they get:

+2 on Galilee
+2 on TransJordan
+2 on Akko
+2 on Negey and +1 (or more) on Jerusalem?
and +2 for the whole command?

That's a lot of bonuses....

 

[OneEyed]

This map looks like a lot of work has been done on it, including the brief. It is being used on another site? Did this come from Conk?

why it would be used in another site? I made it for MajorCommand. what is Conk?

So are you saying that is someone holds Negev, they get +2 bonus for the castle, AND +1 if they hold two other regions in that state? Like Galilee and Trans-Jordan? (Which also have castles)

Negev is "land region" and castles (as cities) are individual regions. so if you hold only Negev you get no bonus. you must from Negev take Ibelin (castle) and you get +2 to the castle (autodeploy).

So if someone has Negey, TransJordan, Galilee, and Akko, then they get:

+2 on Galilee
+2 on TransJordan
+2 on Akko
+2 on Negey and +1 (or more) on Jerusalem?
and +2 for the whole command?

That's a lot of bonuses....

no. if you hold "land regions" Negev, Galilee, Trans-Jordan, Akko you get no bonus.

I will try to explain this on Kingdom of Jerusalem:
if you hold Negev, Galilee (land regions) and then you take Jerusalem (city) you get +1 bonus (for deploy anywhere) for holding city and 2 regions (land regions) in its state. if you then take Ibelin (castle) you get +2 but only in castle.

if you will hold entire Kingdom of Jerusalem ("land regions" Negev, Galilee, Trans-Jordan, Akko, "castles" Ibelin, Kerak, Safed, "cities" Jerusalem, Acre) you get these bonuses:
+2 autodeploy (so dirrect to castles) in Ibelin, Safed, Kerak
+2 bonus for deploy anywhere for "city" Jerusalem and 4 regions (land regions) Negev, Galilee, Akko, Trans-Jordan
+2 bonus for deploy anywhere for "city" Acre and 4 regions (land regions) Negev, Galilee, Akko, Trans-Jordan
+2 bonus for deploy anywhere for command Kingdom of Jerusalem

so at the start of your next round each castle will has 2 more troops and you will have 9 (3 "troops from start " and 6 for holding command Kingdom of Jerusalem) to deploy anywhere.

for better explantation - castles and cities are regions as cities in Rivals of Rome map.

OneEyed

 

[OneEyed]

I added containers (for numbers) to castles, cities. I hope that now is much clear that these are individual regions.
how can I explain in legend that there is difference between regions as castles, cities (Ibelin, Jerusalem) and land regions (Negev, Galilee...)?

OneEyed

 

[Sebrim]

if you added the troop containers also to the land regions (and to the ships), that would clarify a lot already

 

[OneEyed]

if you added the troop containers also to the land regions (and to the ships), that would clarify a lot already

here we go

and here is brief

OneEyed

 

[NewSheriffInTown]

Okay, I think I got you.

But you have to specify where the cities and castles can attack.

Can Jerusalem attack TransJordan? Can Negey attack El-Arish?

 

[OneEyed]

Okay, I think I got you.

ok. and do you think it will be clear also for players who will not read my explantation?

But you have to specify where the cities and castles can attack.

Can Jerusalem attack TransJordan? Can Negey attack El-Arish?

there is no border between Jerusalem and Trans-Jordan. Jerusalem can attacks just Negev. but good point, I will find space in brief to notice that.

OneEyed

 

[NewSheriffInTown]

So castles and cities can only attack, and can only be attacked, by the one region in the same territory.

Okay, you should either state that in the brief, or draw circles around the territory and cities, though you may not have enough room for circles.

What if there is both a city and a castle in the same region, can Jerusalem attack Ibelin?

 

[Shepherd]

Overall, I like the theme and the direction of this map. But some things are making me think too hard...

So castles and cities can only attack, and can only be attacked, by the one region in the same territory.

I agree, this is a bit confusing. As you've seen by playing the site here, OneEyed, the adjacent territories are displayed via highlights. I'm not sure how that would work with the cities within the regions, unless you drew regions around each city.

I'm totally confused by the "Christian City +1 for every 2 land regions of its state." If I hold all of Kingdom of Jerusalem and the two Christian cities in that command does that mean I get +2 for Kingdom of Jerusalem and then I get +2 for Acre and then another +2 for the city of Jerusalem? That's +6 for six regions. And County of Tripoli is only one land region, so you get no bonus for holding that Christian city.

I like tricky bonuses like this, but the game engine does not. Until the re-code happens, there's no rule for dependent commands - they'd have to be done via work-arounds, as we did in 12 Domains.

 

[OneEyed]

So castles and cities can only attack, and can only be attacked, by the one region in the same territory.

yes. but there are just 3 such a regions.

Okay, you should either state that in the brief, or draw circles around the territory and cities, though you may not have enough room for circles.

look at Rivals of Rome how there works city Rome. there is almost no circle or anything, there is just containers for troop numbers.

What if there is both a city and a castle in the same region, can Jerusalem attack Ibelin?

I thought about this, but I do not much like this idea.

Overall, I like the theme and the direction of this map. But some things are making me think too hard...

thanks. well I am open to make everything to make things clear, because I also like theme and map

I agree, this is a bit confusing. As you've seen by playing the site here, OneEyed, the adjacent territories are displayed via highlights. I'm not sure how that would work with the cities within the regions, unless you drew regions around each city.

as I wrote upper, city Rome in Rivals of Rome map has almost no borders, just container for troops numbers. I could try to draw border around cities and castles. but what about this?

if this will not works what about this?

I'm totally confused by the "Christian City +1 for every 2 land regions of its state." If I hold all of Kingdom of Jerusalem and the two Christian cities in that command does that mean I get +2 for Kingdom of Jerusalem and then I get +2 for Acre and then another +2 for the city of Jerusalem? That's +6 for six regions.

you almost hit the nail. but +2 for Kingdom of Jerusalem you get only if you hold also all cities and castles of Kingdom. these are part of bonuses. so with both cities and all 4 land regions you get +4.
+6 you get for 9 regions.

And County of Tripoli is only one land region, so you get no bonus for holding that Christian city.

yes, but as County of Tripoli also Cyprus count just 3 regions (1 land region, 1 city, 1 castle) so it is easy to take +1 for that command.
bonus +1 for Christian city and 2 land regions of its state I made as a half way to take entire state. and also for balancing with bonus +1 for Muslim city and 2 land regions of its state.
and as for command of 3 regions of Cyprus or County of Tripoli is bonus +1 also for command of 3 regions of Christian city and 2 land regions is bonus +1.

I like tricky bonuses like this, but the game engine does not. Until the re-code happens, there's no rule for dependent commands - they'd have to be done via work-arounds, as we did in 12 Domains.

in 12 Domains there is autodeploy bonus added to castle for holding its region. so the same (but not autodeploy) is here for command City and land regions.
I do not know game mechanics, but I can not see any problem to code this. it is very alike as in Middle East Asia map with oiler towers where you get +1 for any 4 and +5 for all 5.

thanks guys for interest and notices.

OneEyed

 

[Shepherd]

in 12 Domains there is autodeploy bonus added to castle for holding its region. so the same (but not autodeploy) is here for command City and land regions.

Correct. You can set up individual combinations as auto-deploy, but not as bonuses. And it can't be just any combination of three, it has to be set up as a very specific combination of three. We can do [X + Y = BONUS], but we can't do [X + (Y or Z) = BONUS]. It's not written as a rule, yet. Believe me - I have a map that I finished four years ago complete with medals that is still waiting for this rule.

I do not know game mechanics, but I can not see any problem to code this. it is very alike as in Middle East Asia map with oiler towers where you get +1 for any 4 and +5 for all 5.

Like I said, it's a work-around. There are five combinations of +1 bonuses in Middle East, so if you hold all five, you automatically get +5. What you are proposing is a fine plan for a map, we just can't do it right now.

As for the cities, don't worry about how they are displayed - we can sort that out later. What matters now is that it plays well and makes sense to the players.

 

[OneEyed]

Correct. You can set up individual combinations as auto-deploy, but not as bonuses. And it can't be just any combination of three, it has to be set up as a very specific combination of three. We can do [X + Y = BONUS], but we can't do [X + (Y or Z) = BONUS]. It's not written as a rule, yet. Believe me - I have a map that I finished four years ago complete with medals that is still waiting for this rule.

I believe you

Like I said, it's a work-around. There are five combinations of +1 bonuses in Middle East, so if you hold all five, you automatically get +5. What you are proposing is a fine plan for a map, we just can't do it right now.

I understand it now. and I made new gameplay.

As for the cities, don't worry about how they are displayed - we can sort that out later. What matters now is that it plays well and makes sense to the players.

I found way how cities can work. if they make sense to the players I do not know, but at the first they must make sense to you and people who can make decision to pick up this map and alive it

here is a little changed new version with new gameplay.

and brief

OneEyed

 

[Shepherd]

OK, I think that works with the game engine. And your solution to my concern about the cities was an elegant one.

Now let's consider what the bonuses do... correct me if I'm reading something wrong.

The Cairo Califate contains a total of seven regions with four borders regions (one bordering region is a killer neutral). On a typical map that might be worth a +4 or +5, depending on how the map plays. With this bonus system, you'd get +6 to deploy anywhere, plus two more on the cities; that's +8.

The Kingdom of Jerusalem has nine regions, four of which are borders (one bordering region is a killer neutral). In my mind that's typically good for a +6. Here you get +5 for the command, +2 or the cities, and +6 auto-deployed on the castles; that's +13 for holding nine regions.

Granted, Jerusalem will be tough to gobble up on this map as it's surrounded by potential enemies. Let's turn our attention to the little guys that will fall early.

Cyprus is three regions. The only bordering regions are killer neutrals, which means it is very easy to defend. In my book that's a +1, no more. On this map you'd get +1 for the command, +2 for the castle, and another +1 for the city; that's +4 for holding three regions with no enemies on the border. I assume the castles start neutral, so if I get one of the two Cyprus regions on the drop my first move is to take out the other player on the island - then there's no competition there. On my second turn I get a +1, then I hit the castle and by round 3 I am getting a +4 bonus and the game is over.

It is my opinion that the bonuses are way too high too make this a good game. If a player gets lucky early - and somebody will get lucky early - they have a very early and very formidable advantage.

 

[OneEyed]

OK, I think that works with the game engine. And your solution to my concern about the cities was an elegant one.

thanks.

Now let's consider what the bonuses do... correct me if I'm reading something wrong.

you are absolutely correct

The Cairo Califate contains a total of seven regions with four borders regions (one bordering region is a killer neutral). On a typical map that might be worth a +4 or +5, depending on how the map plays. With this bonus system, you'd get +6 to deploy anywhere, plus two more on the cities; that's +8.

agreed with you. I think we can reduce bonus for Muslims by any lost troops? is possible this?:
Muslim city +1 for each land region without city of its state
+1 autodeploy if land region it is in is held
-1 (-2) if both cities in the same state are held

The Kingdom of Jerusalem has nine regions, four of which are borders (one bordering region is a killer neutral). In my mind that's typically good for a +6. Here you get +5 for the command, +2 or the cities, and +6 auto-deployed on the castles; that's +13 for holding nine regions.

I take one castle from Kingdom of Jerusalem and made bonus for its command lower. so now Kingdom of Jerusalem has 8 regions with 4 borders, one border is killer neutral. so you get +2 for cities, +4 autodeploy for castles, +2 for kingdom.

Cyprus is three regions. The only bordering regions are killer neutrals, which means it is very easy to defend. In my book that's a +1, no more. On this map you'd get +1 for the command, +2 for the castle, and another +1 for the city; that's +4 for holding three regions with no enemies on the border. I assume the castles start neutral, so if I get one of the two Cyprus regions on the drop my first move is to take out the other player on the island - then there's no competition there. On my second turn I get a +1, then I hit the castle and by round 3 I am getting a +4 bonus and the game is over.

please notice, that land region Cyprus and also its cities start as neutral. but I changed castle in Cyprus to city and made no bonus for command Cyprus. also new border (still killer neutral) is added to new city. so for Cyprus you now get +2 for cities.

It is my opinion that the bonuses are way too high too make this a good game. If a player gets lucky early - and somebody will get lucky early - they have a very early and very formidable advantage.

I reduced all bonuses. what we need reduce are Muslims bonuses. if there is possibility which I asked upper it could be better.
much depends on game settings how much autodeploy troops could be used...

brief

OneEyed