City of CARDIFF

[FLAGG]

Hi,

I love the British Isles Map and play it a lot.

One comment that I want to make, is that I think that the BONUS for the City of Cardiff should reduced from +2, to +1. This entire city can be defended from one country.

There is NO other city or country that can be defended from one point. Most of the other cities on the map are +2 also, but are more complex to defend.

It would seem that at a bare minimum that the map should be reprogramed to have different people own each of the 4 territories of the city. I have played in games where one person got 3 out of 4 city regions, and the outside of the city!

It seems, from playing a lot on this map, that it is ALWAYS a distinct advantage to own Cardiff.

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Is this change is going to be a consideration, I would suggest that it be with all NEW games, from a certain date, moving forward. I am NOT trying to suggest mid game changes to current active games - as it seems that would not be fair.

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Thoughts?

FLAGG

 

[Sebrim]

I do not agree. If Cardiff was such a huge advantage, as you say, surely someone would have brought this up before.

I only vote for changing the initial drop zones in Cardiff, so that nobody can have more than one city precinct while also having Glamorgan around, for example. That should be an easy fix.

Suggestion: move this thread to the maps section ?

 

[FLAGG]

Sebrim,

This map is totally fun, and I play it a lot. I know I have been in several games with you on this map - so you probably play it a lot too.

Not sure that I agree that someone would have brought this up before. Possible. But It takes playing the map, many, many times and seeing many, many games unfold before one would come to this conclusion.

And even if someone did come to this conclusion, they would actually have to take the time to write about it. This might have happened in the old days of the site, when the forum was incredibly active - but as of late - this forum seems pretty much dead (in comparison to when I joined the site). I hope it slowly comes back.

I am the one that suggested changing the New England Bonus on the USA map. After much discussion this was done. I think it is a better map now and most people are happy with that change. I am simply offering an idea to see what other people think.

The game British Isles game we are in right now is a perfect example of the advantage someone will get by capturing it early. I have been in games where that person was me. And games where someone else got it early. Does not feel right either way.

You are right - at a minimum the initial drop zones should be changed as you suggest. I have been in way to many games where Cardiff is practically given to one team.

FLAGG

 

[Dalinar]

Agreed on the change. It's not my favorite, but British Isles is definitely an interesting map I like to play. +2 for a command that has a single entrance is too much - there's a reason all the little commands or ones with chokes that strong are worth 1 on every other map. The regions might also be reduced to three if the command is reduced, but I don't know how badly that'd mangle the actual geography.

 

[DecaturGuy]

I love the British Isles map. It's become a favorite, and I like the city play.

I currently control Cardiff in a game, but it's not doing me too much good at the moment! Everyone seems to target the Welsh!

 

[Cardinalsrule]

I'm going to vote NO on making a change. That was one of the very first maps of MC, been just as it is for over 4 years now, and I've never heard complaints before. It was the first map that I played and my first win, (thanks to having the best doubles partner on the site )

It ain't broke, no reason to fix it. :tongue:

 

[Robinette]

Agreed on the change. It's not my favorite, but British Isles is definitely an interesting map I like to play. +2 for a command that has a single entrance is too much - there's a reason all the little commands or ones with chokes that strong are worth 1 on every other map...

except maybe Aussie on the Classic map...

PS - i personally like the map the way it is

 

[Dalinar]

I may be a heretic, but I think that's why classic evolved is a definite improvement on the classic.

Alternatively, the number of regions could be increased to 5 and that would make it fairer. It'd still be strategically valuable with the choke, but at least a little slower to take and harder to hold in most games.

 

[Sebrim]

I don't think changing the map is up for discussion anymore. The only change that's acceptable is a change in the starting positions algoithm, or have I misunderstood something?

 

[Dalinar]

I think changing the starting positions algorithm would actually be harder. There are a lot of dependencies built into how a map is generated. My reading is that they don't generate a map that fits the conditions we want. Instead, they completely randomly generate a map and throw away bad ones until they get a good one. If you introduce a condition like that, it could take twice as long to generate a map because now 50% of the ones that were good are now bad.

 

[Sebrim]

nope, I have been involved in the creation of several maps here, and I know for a fact that this is an easy change, easier than changing the map image.

 

[Geoffrey]

I always thought it was a bit high, but the map has grown on me and I kinda like it being +2, but the Cardiff bonus being +1 makes far more sense.

 

[Dalinar]

That's great. I'm going to have to go put together a long list of position restrictions that should be implemented then.. (only 1-2 per map). It comes to mind that stopping someone from having 3-castles in the same region in the 12 D would be great. There are a lot more too.

These do have to be done to fit every player size, right? So we can't just make a change for 2 player, 4 player, etc?

 

[Sebrim]

That's great. I'm going to have to go put together a long list of position restrictions that should be implemented then.. (only 1-2 per map). It comes to mind that stopping someone from having 3-castles in the same region in the 12 D would be great. There are a lot more too.

These do have to be done to fit every player size, right? So we can't just make a change for 2 player, 4 player, etc?

I think you misunderstood. I'm talking about drop restrictions - the initial drop being so that no command is too easy to get. For example, the most basic drop restriction is that nobody should have a command for themselves at the beginning of the first turn. The most complex drop restriction is in 12domains, where only the castles are to be distributed.

 

[Dalinar]

That's exactly what I mean, I was a bit unclear in what I said though. No one should be stuck _starting_ with 3 castles in the same region. It can happen with 2 and 4 player games and is frequently a death sentence. You restrict the drop so they can't start with 3 in the same region. It's kind of opposite to most restrictions in that it stops a player from getting a terrible position instead of a great one, but it's still ironing out a game balance issue.

There are issues on other maps where someone gets all but 1 region of a large command and similar things.

Anyway, I'm all for restricting a player to one starting region in Cardiff then.

 

[FLAGG]

Ok. Thanks. I still think Cardiff should be +1, but it seems there is only partial agreement. And of course the eternal memory, and consistency, must be maintained forever - right or wrong - if it was Cardinal's first win

Thanks for the discussion.

Sebrim - if you can change the drop - I think that would help.

Thanks!

FLAGG

 

[Sebrim]

I can't change anything, I'm afraid. That will have to be done by Shepherd or RjBeals or Widowmaker, I guess. That's why I suggested to move the thread to the Map Studio, which is where these three might see it.

 

[FLAGG]

How do you move a thread?

FLAGG

 

[Cardinalsrule]

That's great. I'm going to have to go put together a long list of position restrictions that should be implemented then.. (only 1-2 per map). It comes to mind that stopping someone from having 3-castles in the same region in the 12 D would be great. There are a lot more too.

These do have to be done to fit every player size, right? So we can't just make a change for 2 player, 4 player, etc?

Making drop position restrictions, from what I understand from talking to Shep, is somewhat tedious and time-consuming, and every restriction that is made increases the chances of games glitching (not starting). I'm going to venture to say that Shep, Beals, and/or Wids aren't going to want to do that without a compelling reason to, and definitely not without a go-ahead from the Sheriff.

I can move the thread over there, but before that, I'd like some other CentCom people to comment - particularly our fearless leader, whose $$ are spent when he gets the cartographers and coders to do work on the site. Nothing is free, gents.

I agree with what Dalinar said about 12 domains, that one seems worth doing.

The way the restrictions work is like this - the basic coding rules state that no one can start with a command. (There are other restrictions as well, obviously, many of them for particular maps.) So, to prevent the drop that Dalinar was talking about, the person doing the coding of the map would have to make 4 'dummy' commands, with a bonus of 0. That way no one could end up with 3 in one region.

When a game starts, the terts are distributed randomly. If the result violates one of the restrictions, it's tossed and the system tries again. After a certain number of tries (from what I understand) if it isn't successful, it gives up and the game doesn't start. For that reason (among others), Shep & co. are reluctant to add restrictions unless deemed absolutely necessary.

Dalinar's idea of restricting someone to one region in Cardiff would be a stone-cold bitch to write.

 

[Dalinar]

Thanks for the support I'd be really happy if a 12D fix like that were implemented.

Anyway, if that's how it works, Cardiff could be done by combining each of the 6 possible combinations of 2 regions into a command. However, with 3 players and a neutral.. my estimate is that you'd end up throwing 95% of games away just because of someone having two regions in Cardiff.

So I'm back to supporting it being a +1 command