Broken Diplomacy Question

[gravity]

Need your help understanding the diplomacy function. In Cold War Europe, I had an agreement between France and England that had 2 rounds left. The person I had the agreement with attacked France through Bel/Lux and took france from me. The next round, I took France back and attacked England from France. As I understood it, once France is taken by any other player, the diplo agreements with that tert cease to exist.

When I came back for my next round I received a notice that "it was confirmed you violated your diplo agreements" and my diplo honor took a 30 point hit.

Is it accurate that diplo agreements exist beyond when you lose a tert, or is this an error and I shouldn't have lost my diplo credibility?

Thanks,

-grav

 

[Cardinalsrule]

That's an error. Hopefully if the re-coding ever gets done, those kinds of things will be fixed.

 

[gravity]

Thanks Cards, I at least feel better about it!

 

[TheGeneral]

It will have asked you to and you will have clicked yes. If in doubt press no.

One thing I have seen is that if you offer a diplo and the other player ignores rather than declines it, then you get the message "are you sure you want to attack". I am too scared to press yes in case i lose an honour rating...

Have any of you seen this?

 

[bcr914]

If a diplo is put in place for say 8 rounds ... then a request for 4 rounds comes after (same countries) and "yes" is clicked ... which prevails as the diplo ... 8 rounds or 4 rounds??

 

[pyatpyat]

That's a great question, bcr. I haven't seen that come up, but it would be interesting to see if there could be a legitimate "shortening" of a diplo -- of course it would have to be agreed to by both parties. Another question along these lines -- are there Beta tester profiles where these things can be tested? I know that no one is allowed two profiles, but perhaps if each Beta username started with BETA (for example: BETApyat) it would make clear the status (and purpose) behind the experimental account.

 

[Cardinalsrule]

There is a "side" site, called DEVCOM, in which things like that get tested, pyat.

Sharp eyes there, General. I knew that there were times that the message appeared when it shouldn't, but you pinpointed WHEN that is happening.

I don't believe that there is any shortening of diplo's; they just run concurrently. If masterjskye sees this, he can probably confirm, he's our expert on how the diplo's work.

 

[BadElmer]

They do run concurrently (so that if one is over, the other is still in effect and would be considered broken if violated). As far as the mistaken "are you sure..." messages go, I simply make sure I have refreshed (especially in realtime games) and check the diplo log. If it says there that I do not have a current treaty in effect I click "yes". Since doing this I have never had any confirm that I broke a treaty (I think because they were never asked because the system recognizes that there is no treaty in effect). Many people claim that they only have low diplo ratings because of "accidents". I do not accept that excuse. I also find these "accidents" tend to happen to habitual treaty breakers. I do hope the diplo system is fixed soon just to remove that excuse from their toolbox. I absolutely will not diplo with anyone under 900, no matter the excuses or my personal feelings toward the player, but we all have our own limits.

 

[masterjskye]

If masterjskye sees this, he can probably confirm, he's our expert on how the diplo's work.

Hah, I don't know about that! I can confirm though, the treaties just overlap. There's no way to shorten a treaty except by mutual agreement (gentleman's agreement that no one will report when the truce is broken).

Mind you, if someone did break the agreement that had been "doubled up" it's logical to assume you could be hit with 2 diplomacy violations. Never tried it, personally.

 

[Cardinalsrule]

Many people claim that they only have low diplo ratings because of "accidents". I do not accept that excuse. I also find these "accidents" tend to happen to habitual treaty breakers. I do hope the diplo system is fixed soon just to remove that excuse from their toolbox.

I know from personal experience that there ARE times that the warning message doesn't appear. My one and only treaty violation happened that way. Thankfully, enough time has passed that the diplo gods removed that stain from my profile.

I do agree with you, though, that these things do seem to occur more frequently to people with a LOT of violations.

 

[masterjskye]

Elmer - do you not diplo with anyone under 900 because you assume that 1 break = 30 points lost? When I first came on the site I'm sure you lost 30 points and it regenerated at 1 point per day. That is totally bugged - you can lose hundreds of points for one break and it does not regenerate (for everybody?>

I've been scouting the scoreboard recently and there are people with crazy scores like 800(0) or 747(1)...

I understand your stance though, I just hope we can get the system working as intended.

 

[BadElmer]

I know from personal experience that there ARE times that the warning message doesn't appear. My one and only treaty violation happened that way. Thankfully, enough time has passed that the diplo gods removed that stain from my profile.

I do agree with you, though, that these things do seem to occur more frequently to people with a LOT of violations.

I also agree that accidents have happened. They happen less if you actually check before attacking. I have violated diplo twice total myself. The first was one of these accidents. (The second was in retaliation of another broken treaty (not even against me). I knew I would be hit with the penalty AND lose the game but chose to not let the treaty-breaker win the game. I never let a treaty-breaker win the game if I can do anything about it.

 

[BadElmer]

Elmer - do you not diplo with anyone under 900 because you assume that 1 break = 30 points lost? When I first came on the site I'm sure you lost 30 points and it regenerated at 1 point per day. That is totally bugged - you can lose hundreds of points for one break and it does not regenerate (for everybody?>

I've been scouting the scoreboard recently and there are people with crazy scores like 800(0) or 747(1)...

I understand your stance though, I just hope we can get the system working as intended.

900 is just the number I've settled on. (I also won't ASK for diplo if your score is under 950.) I felt like I needed a rule for myself and the score has to mean something. Some, I'm sure, won't diplo with anyone under 1000. I left some room for the accidentals, while still unable to trust anyone who has too many accidents. I've lost some games for not agreeing to truces but I don't like to accept them anyway under threat of attack, but when there is mutual gain. I find the benefit of the diplo is lost if some trust is not there. I probably use diplo less than many, but far from never and win often enough having not used any.

I still haven't gotten a good feel for how fast the number in parentheses regenerates (mine says 0, but I have 2 over a year old), but I think those odd scores cited above may be explained like this...

That 800(0) may have once been 200(7) and the parenthetical number simply regenerated to 0 before the diplo score made it back to 1000.

 

[SimonDeDanser]

Dear Bad Elmer,

“200(7) to 800(0)”: That looks like a change from a habitual deal breaker towards saint. I believe that means someone did not break a treaty in at least 600 days. I would not refrain myself of making a deal with him on this basis.
For someone with Bad in his name you seem to hold a very high bar on the diplomatic front.
I myself did not start out a saint on this site, but bear in mind that the game-play and the exact ins and outs of diplomatic agreements are not easily figured out on this site.
If you have played around a lot on the 3 minute RT end of majCom site, you mostly had to figure it out by trial and error. After a year I am still not 100% sure how all the scores are calculated, but i am sure it is not a linear 30 points par broken treaty. In game-play there is a real difference between 3 min real time escalate game, on a time of day with a slow server; and a game in casual game mode, in which you have the time to check everything. When time is of the essence, I became very easily numb for the messages that appear for every truce (active, ended ,cancelled or even still in request.) That may be considered a character flaw from my part, but taken in account the bugs and the ‘tricks’ to fuck (or get fucked) over in the Diplomatic score department: A ‘not perfect diplomatic score’ is very easily ‘achieved’. I myself lost something around 210 points in a Classic Massive escalate 3 minute Real time game with such a ‘trick’. After at least more than 6 months my trustworthiness is still questioned by players. Even worse: :bawling: It has effectively shunned me away from 3 minute real time on big maps.
But these are all side notes.
I have not broken a treatment in at least 6 months and have never broken a treatment in casual 24h game play mode. Please don’t tell others., I don’t want people to know i am a shy curly haired glasses wearing goody two shoes hiding behind a huge computer monitor. I want people to keep believing i am a fearsome big bearded heavy tattooed mighty Pirate who roams the treacherous waters around Monkey Island. You may doubt this account of me, but please consider opening diplomatic contact so we both can prosper, …..
I am not Kim Jong Un, I am Guybrush Treepwood a Mighty Noble Pirate. … ARRRRR!

fftopic:

 

[BadElmer]

Simon,

As I explained, I just need something to judge trustworthiness and there are too many players on this site to just remember who that is all of the time. My system works for me. Again, it's nothing personal toward anyone. It's just what I find works for me. I don't even find it dishonorable or scandalous if someone has a diplo score in the 100's. It's a perfectly valid strategy to break treaties habitually and I fully recognize that the scoring system is imperfect. But the ONLY penalty for breaking diplo right now is that score (as imperfect as it may be). If I don't use it, then I have to remember my relations with hundreds of players (some of which I just don't see often enough). I could keep notes on each player, I suppose, but I don't (although I do keep a list of those I just won't ever play, but that has little to do with diplo and more to do with being abrasive, quitting games, multiple accounts, etc.) You're not on that list. I'll agree that 900 is a pretty high bar (albeit not 1000 either), but everytime I think of lowering my standard I get burned by someone in the 800's so I've kept it where it is.

That all being said, I still leave room for making gentleman/lady's agreements with those that my heart says to trust when my brain says no. You are a perfect candidate for that. If it's really a matter of trust, then I feel the diplo system is fully unnecessary. It only quantifies my distrust (imperfectly admittedly) and I am a sucker for quantification. I generally perceive the world mathematically and am thereby a bit of a slave to numbers. Agree or disagree with my system, but it's my system.

Also, the Bad in my name is a thinly-veiled attempt to strike pirate-fear in my opponents as well. I want you all to think I'm a big bearded badass as well (instead of the big bearded pacifist I really am).

(Truth be told, my name comes from playing Risk II online over a decade ago. I joined a clan in which all members used names associated with their alcoholic drink of choice. My favorite beer at that time was a local called "Bad Elmer's Porter". It just stuck after that.)

 

[Cardinalsrule]

I still prefer "Bald Ermer", lol

 

[BadElmer]

I still prefer "Bald Ermer", lol

I know you do, Carnaldrool. heh.

 

[Chilly]

i know you do, carnaldrool. Heh.

lol!

 

[Cardinalsrule]

:dontknow: Hey, I'm not the one that coined the phrase, baldy. :rofl:

 

[Bluebonnet]

hey, at least it wasn't Bad Elmo.