Barbarossa feedback, anyone?

[AuraCraft]

The Red Army beat the Germans... (some 80% of Wehrmacht losses were caused by the Red Army; the allies only made it just in time to claim the western part of Europe and Germany for capitalism. 25k Dutchmen died during the Hunger Winter of 44-45 coz conquering West Germany was prioritized over liberating Holland)
So why is the ribbon part of the UDO medal the Reichsflag!? It's an insult to the two dozen million casualties suffered by the Soviets. A red flag is more appropriate.

Barbarossa was doomed to fail anyway. There were German Generals who knew this. Logistically impossible. There is no scenario where they wouldn't run out of fuel long before they'd reach Baku oil fields.

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A British Isles styled Stalingrad city command would be nice
I know that offensive wasn't part of Barbarossa but neither was the invasion of Norway
If only coz defeating Stalin (and communism) was the reason why Germany was supported by American banks and industries to wage war. (Dresden was carpet bombed (a warcrime) while American owned industries in the Ruhrgebiet (e.g. Ford) were spared. End result; America became the world's new hegemon.)

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I'd prefer the territory names in Norway to be "Oslo, Bergen, Stavanger" corresponding with the 3 biggest urban areas of the country located in those 3 territories. East, West and South Norway seems so generic

(original post, spam - )
I've been checking the RT front page to see if the new map would show up dozens of times these last few weeks
I missed the tournament which felt like my Christmas present had been stolen but Im happy to receive a mail from Brian, (a top contender for current favorite MCpal) invited me to a Barbarossa game^^

Checking out the flags...
Pity the hammer and sickle are apparently regarded as politically incorrect... Why can't I be a tanky?
I always choose communist red for myself^^
However, you can choose Kamikaze, which is odd coz its a tactic never used during Barbarossa (also, I heard it wasn't that effective coz those were inexperienced pilots who missed their targets, stressed out and drunk on sake)

Anyway, thanks for the new map

 

[Lulzim]

We can rename it if you want, any suggestion?

 

[Cardinalsrule]

I still don't like the way the north plays. Three commands with only 2 ways in. A ship should have a connection.

On a small/medium map, to have 3 commands that can be held with only 2 entry points is tremendously unbalanced. History be damned.

 

[periwinkle]

+1

Also the colour selection isn't enough to support some good team games....

 

[The-Swede]

I do like the Scandinavia focal point. We are the most important people in the world.

 

[Lulzim]

No, there are three ways in.
8 regions with 3 borders for +4 is fine cause commands are separated. It is balanced.

Game-play is good it plays good. The map is live now. Enjoy =)

 

[Cardinalsrule]

No, there are three ways in.
8 regions with 3 borders for +4 is fine cause commands are separated. It is balanced.

Game-play is good it plays good. The map is live now. Enjoy =)

Three entrance points for 4 commands worth +5 is NOT balanced.

 

[Lulzim]

So lets make it clear, before we discussed about 3 commands but now for 4 commands. 4 commands are: Denmark, Norway, Sweden and Finland
Then you have 4 entrance points, not 3. Entrance points are: 1.KARELIA(Finland) 2.SEALAND(Denmark) 3.JUTLAND(Denmark) 4.S.NORWAY(Norway)

 

[Sebrim]

but Sealand and Jutland become one if you have Northern Germany

 

[Sebrim]

one way around it would be to make sure Eastern Norway or Skane or Western Finland is always neutral at beginning of turn

Or: all of Sweden as neutral, so it would really take some guts to attack it

 

[Cardinalsrule]

one way around it would be to make sure Eastern Norway or Skane or Western Finland is always neutral at beginning of turn

Or: all of Sweden as neutral, so it would really take some guts to attack it

Or an easy fix to the unbalanced problem would be to have the ships route to Sweden or Finland, as I've been saying all along.

I wish Shep were still around... This map wouldn't have been released until it was even and balanced.

 

[NewSheriffInTown]

Yeah, I haven't played enough to tell if it just looks unbalanced, or if there is a definitive player advantage, like New England on the USA map.

On paper it seems fair.

5 Bonus - Germany - 7 Regions - Defend 5 Borders - Attack 8 Regions
5 Bonus - USSR - 8 Regions - Defend 4 Borders - Attack 6 Regions
4 Bonus - Nor.Fin.Swe - 8 Regions - Defend 3 Borders - Attack only 2 Regions

So maybe it might take a bit more playing to see how it plays out over the long run. We can always change it if is becomes an actual repeating factor in victories. The players will notice over a few hundred games.

 

[Cardinalsrule]

Yeah, I haven't played enough to tell if it just looks unbalanced, or if there is a definitive player advantage, like New England on the USA map.

On paper it seems fair.

5 Bonus - Germany - 7 Regions - Defend 5 Borders - Attack 8 Regions
5 Bonus - USSR - 8 Regions - Defend 4 Borders - Attack 6 Regions
4 Bonus - Nor.Fin.Swe - 8 Regions - Defend 3 Borders - Attack only 2 Regions

So maybe it might take a bit more playing to see how it plays out over the long run. We can always change it if is becomes an actual repeating factor in victories. The players will notice over a few hundred games.

HOW MANY games will it take to see that, on a small map, you can hold FOUR commands with only three terts????? Just put in a link from the worthless ships to Scandinavia SOMEWHERE and it will be fixed.

EDIT: Yeah, I said it. As it stands, the ships aren't worth holding or taking. LOOK at what the ships can do on Philippines, and compare it. Without connections to Sweden or AT LEAST to Finland, they might as well not be there.

 

[Lulzim]

@sebrim, yes three regions if you hold a region outside of yiur commands. Will answer below.

@Cardin.... Is wrong to count how many commands you protect with three regions, you should count bonuses they give. Anyway lets continue the way you want.
The map is balanced, for you is not and you suggested to add connection from Sweden to one of ships, because to hold 4 commands with three regions is wrong.
Please check North America map, with three regions you can hold 4 commands, is bigger map but also bonuses are higher. You can also hold 4 commands with three regions on British Isles, even 6 commands with three regions. Now to compare it with smaller maps, in Middle east you can hold 4 commands with three regions, also USA. Just to let you know, almost every map you can cut in middle with 4 regions. This is smart touch. Not every game is with Escalate cards.
And im not one of those who like to solve a problem with a problem. You probably saw comments about kamikaze troop container and swastika, think what they will say about incorrect connection on map which is also historically wrong.
Im not sorry that i can not satisfy everyone with a single map because no one can.

 

[riskyone]

I do like the Scandinavia focal point. We are the most important people in the world.

Very pretty woman from that area.

 

[Lokiskittens]

Love the map, the unbalance Cards is referring to will only come to light in flat-rate games. In other games, it will take to long to get to that point. I don't see a reason to change a good map for one minor condition. One thing I seem to notice is that in two-player games the position of neutral terts have a big effect on the playability of the map. Could we consider 4 fewer neutrals to start with?

 

[periwinkle]

I noticed the unbalance.... just 1 more connection from a ship to the north should fix that.

 

[Lulzim]

You are using word unbalance because you just dont know how to call what you noticed, i think you and Card.. like to have a connection line just because Sweden looks big. We cant do it. In original world map Asia is big and gives huge bonus, Australia is small and so is the bonus. Then Africa should give bigger bonus than Europe. When you calculate you will agree that Europe must give higher bonus than Africa even that is smaller.
So we need to calculate.

In Sweden bonus alone you see 2.5 which is no nearer to 2.0 than it is to 3.0. But i choose to give +2 because we have Poland +2. Suggested by Newsheriffintown

+ if we add another connection line in Sweden or Finland then the north have to be protected from one more region so when i calculate this way i got bonus +6 for north. So what did we do in the end? We add one connection and we increase bonus +1, do you see any solution for problem that dont exist?
This way we simply make these mistakes:
1. Giving advantage to one ship
2. We increse bonuses which is not good cause map is not big
?3. If you read the map, every ship is connected with their own ports, USSR ship with USSR ports, then we will need to make one more region with Finland ship so USSR ship can attack Finland ship then Finland ship can attack Finland port. As you see is not just one connection.
Play and Enjoy =)

Edited: If you find better formula to calculate bonuses then let me know.
I have formula that is used at Conk and i dont really like it but i like formula made by (very smart guy) Vexer or Dexter here at MC
Still i cant say that any formula is 100% correct but i prefer to use one that is made by Widowmakers (Best map maker for this game)

 

[Cardinalsrule]

Well, I'll say it once more. On a small map, being able to hold 4 commands with a bonus of 5 with only 3 regions makes it EXTREMELY unbalanced. It's too hard to attack once that happens. One of the ships needs to attach to either Sweden or Norway, that will solve the issue, as Periwinkle noted. It also makes the ships more valuable, currently they are nearly worthless. On the Philippines map the ships are valuable, they can take you somewhere across the map. On this map, not at all.

Another point that another player brought up is that possibly the +1 terts should start with a neutral 2 instead of 3. Currently very uninviting to take.

 

[Sebrim]

I agree with much of what has been said here, but I do not feel that the Scandinavian commands make the map unbalanced. It has only happened in one of the 15 games I have played so far that the Scandinavian commands all belonged to one player. That time, it as because no neutrals were there, which made the whole region very attractive.

To the ships: Yes, they are unattractive at the moment, because you can advance just as quickly from Northern Germany to USSR via boat as on land. It's a bit like the ship in Mexican-American War. It's almost never useful, but then it sometimes is.I object to any change of sea routes.

I like the idea of making Moscow and Brandenburg neutral 2s to start. They are valuable territories, but almost never taken, because it's toomuch of a hurdle. Moreover, the auto-deploy bonuses help set off the perceived advantage of Scandinavia.

I do not think the neutrals should be less numerous in 1v1 games, but it is important that they are spread out over the map. At least, there should be some in Scandinavia. I Gotaland was always neutral at the start, that would maybe also help set off the "Scandinavian advantage"

Just my two cents. All in all, I don't see a pressing need to change anything, but if that's consensus, I'd be happy with those adjustments I outlined above